SPEAKER_00 0:56

Hi and welcome to Behind the Paddle Podcast, episode two. I am Paulson Victoria, also known as Mistress Victoria. Today is a little bit different. So I'm not um there was a development in behind the podcast. And I do now have somebody else who is with me on the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Yeah. So hi guys, I am Emily Sin or Rebecca. Um I run the Sanctuary of Sin and I'm also a co-host of the Uncensored Market. And I'm going to be doing the podcast with Porcelain Victoria. I'm so excited to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

So the Sanctuary Sin is a wonderful shop, very fun. It has lots and lots of goodies. You should definitely check it out. Um yeah, on Censored Market.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Yeah, so we had our first one on Saturday and it went amazing. We're gonna be doing another one in Glasgow at kind of Christmas time with the date getting released very, very soon. So keep your eyes peeled for that.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Um it's gonna be chock full of sex positivity, LGBTQ, and kink art education and goodies.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

So it's definitely a safe space. Um so today we are going to talk about Pride. As it is June, we are going to have possibly a few episodes talking about pride, the history, and all the controversies about it. So the main thing we are going to talk about is does kink belong in pride? Yeah. So yeah. And of course, we would like to know your comments on it and what you think as well. But what do we think?

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Yeah. So I think first off, we're gonna kind of talk about like why having kink and pride is a controversial subject and what kind of problems people see with and can they just go for there and just dive right in.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

So most people see pride and they think, oh, sexuality, and there's so much um negative thoughts about it, but in retrospect of like children being there and yeah, and being like exposed to like what some people deem as like um taboo, not normal, um and like sexual as well, as what like quite a lot of it's kinda put across as when it's like for me taken out of context of what the day's actually about. Like, for example, seeing somebody in a pup mask. I know there are a lot there are a lot of articles online where people are just not happy with seeing kink at Pride because they just see it as everything is sexual. And it's yeah, how do I explain that?

SPEAKER_01 4:27

So, like one of the main we were kind of having a wee pre-chat about this earlier, and one of the main things we were kind of talking about in regards to this is like to a kid that's a costume, yes, and it's only really like from the adult's perspective and the kind of connotations attached to that with their own knowledge yet that can they make it into this sexual thing and make it into this thing that's like not age appropriate, when in reality it's just a costume, it's just a mask, and it to a kid with like no knowledge, a kink, or understanding or understanding like it's just people in fancy dress celebrating at the street, even if there's people that are maybe wearing a bit less, like it's just the same as like someone wearing a bikini or someone you know like wearing like rainbow like hot pants, or yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

It's like when people talk about like um going out in your underwear or whatnot, it that's basically what a bikini is, yeah. Like just because you give it another name does not mean it's different, yeah. Um yeah, that's my thought on it. And like when you're a parent, you are meant to teach your kids right, you're meant to teach, you are there to be the teacher of the child, not necessarily a dictator in the ways of this is right, this or oh, this is wrong, you shouldn't look at this, or uh shield your eyes from the kinksters.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Because I don't know about you, but to me, like kink is in and of itself a sexuality, and I know that that's like a whole other topic and is also quite a controversial point, and I totally appreciate that not everyone sees it that way, and not everyone experiences it that way. I just think that for some people it is personally, um, and I think that should be celebrated, and I think that should be celebrated in much the same way as every other kind of person under the rainbow flag, because we're all constantly under um scrutiny and oppression and taboo, again in slightly different ways, but a community is strongest when it's got like a lot of members, and I feel like this is why it's important for all of these kind of like ostracized groups to stick together because we're all like singing off the same hymn sheet for the most part, yeah, and we're all fighting for the same things to be seen as individuals and to be allowed to celebrate that individuality.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Yeah, absolutely. It's like what was it that I mentioned before? Was that we did not get this so far talking about LGBT um plus with backing down from people like this, we didn't hide away or anything like that. So why should we do it now? Yeah, it it doesn't make any sense to just go back on ourselves. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

I've just thought of a point there. I think it's quite interesting in terms of like obviously homosexuality used to be illegal in the UK, and with the way that laws are changing at the moment, like it's getting to the point where some kinks, especially like impact play and stuff like that, are starting to like kind of creep into like the laws and legislation. Um to the point that like there's certain types of porn, for example, that now can be filmed in the UK. Um there's the potential for some people to end up with like grievous bodily harm charges. If is it that there's like permanent marks left on someone's body?

SPEAKER_00 8:08

Yes. Um even if there is consent, yeah, like it doesn't count.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

So like even within the law, like it's quite scary that we're almost going backwards with Kink at the moment, where there's more laws coming into place now that are actually like further pushing underground. So like it's still it's important, it's still something that needs to be worked on, worked on, and advocated for, and like that's what the kind of the meaning of pride's always been about is like pushing for acceptance and pushing for freedom, freedom and ability to express yourself and ability to just live your life and be who you are and like live your lifestyle the way you want, free like prejudice and attack from the law. And like I feel like now more than ever, like Kink is being affected by that and needs that shelter of like these like amazing groups that have been through that and kinda are coming out of their side yet now. I um have been made aware of some protests that have been taking place in Glasgow that are actually like out against um trans people and trans rights and are actually affecting like businesses in the community that actually stand for pride and everything about it and have that as like a really integral part of their business.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Yeah, and that is still happening in the UK, and it's crazy to even think that it still happens in this day and age, people protesting about freedom.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Yeah, and about people just try to live their lives and have fun who they are. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Um like in Scotland as well, there was a drag story time and there was protests about that as well. I don't think really we should step back and minimize our numbers in at pride. Yeah, because if we abide by what people say, what else are they gonna want after that? Because I know for a fact, like it'll be like drag queens or something afterwards.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Like if we're all fighting amongst ourselves, like they're winning. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like we're stronger together, we're stronger all standing, like allied hand in hand, and just yeah, just fighting for our ability to like for like sexual expression and every single facet of that, really.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, like pride is much about politics, activism, activism, active, yeah, active oh, you can say that now activism representation and celebrating basically the family, even if it's not blood, like whether it's like drag family, kink family, we've all worked together in this community to make it better and to make like a safe space for people to come and be who they are, exactly. Yeah, and all we want is just our rights to be heard and just to keep that going, like just to be able to continue to have that and make it even better, yeah. Absolutely. Um where it comes with children, you could either educate your children, depending on the age, if they will, understand um and realise that kink and pride is for everybody, yeah. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

I think it's all about context, you know what I mean? As I've said, like I understand that for like someone who doesn't really know a lot about kink and is maybe like a bit ignorant of the kind of different groups within that and what that means, and yeah, the fact that like some people live that as a lifestyle, um, and though it's like kind of kink adjacent, it doesn't need to be sexual in nature, it can just be like how they choose to live their life because that is like where they feel comfortable and confident and most themselves, yeah. Um, like it doesn't need to be a sexual thing, and I think as adults, like it's easy to sexualise that, but like for kids that's just no gonna be the case unless it's explained to them in that way, absolutely, and again it's teaching them, leading them of what that adult thinks, what that the adult's opinion is. Like going back to that story you were telling about the storytime up in Dundee.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Like, that is the exact same thing again, where adults have like sexualized that person, and that is why they have claimed that that like person was inappropriate.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Like shouldn't be going on.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Even in the news, I'm sure they were saying that that they were trying to like um like radicalize kids and like yeah, some of the stories that I've seen about her were absolutely ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Like it's like P P like there was a lovely video I showed you on TikTok earlier where it was people protesting and they had hats on and they had flags, and this is protesting. Um, and it was um Trump protesters, and the interviewer was talking about how people of pride wave their flags in people's faces, wear the hats, make the kids wear um the attire as well. And it's it's so delusional, it's so hypocritical, yeah, yeah. Like that's the word, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Where they think it's okay to do what they're doing, but I like totally indoctrinate their kids in that culture and claim the same of others. Like, I don't even know if indoctrinate feels like a big word, that feels like maybe too strong a word, but like, no, that's how they grow up on the other side of it, you know, just like how that looks to them.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

But then their kid might grow up to be hateful. Um it's like that in many other different subjects where the parents, the family, feel so strongly about certain aspects, and it's why some kinky people can't talk to their family about things, and it's why if they feel different, especially if the child is gay or trans, sometimes they can't feel they feel like they can't speak to their parents, maybe because of their views, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

And so they turn to the community because that is such like res resource and such a key part of like people's journey into like finding themselves and finding their identity, and like I feel like it's just the exact same way, kink. Yeah, absolutely, like absolutely um there's still that kind of exploration and like not everybody ends up going into the community, but like it's definitely it it's the same way with everyone, do you know?

SPEAKER_00 17:52

You're going to learn something if you come into the community, and you don't need to go to all these meets or anything like that. You like just going to like one meet or an event, you'll learn so much, and we truly are caring, and we act like a family, we want to take care of other people. Yes, there are like some bad apples where there are is in every single community, but that does not mean that you single out bad parts, you don't just think about the little bit of negative, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

I think that's why it's important for like communities to be as big as possible as well, because if a community is really small, it allows that like one bad apple to really spoil what could otherwise have been like a really like cool inclusive space. Whereas if it's part of a bigger group as a whole, like it allows more opportunities for like people like that to be kind of like singled out and like dealt with for want of a better word, yeah, and like not to kind of spoil it for everyone else because there's other places people can go, they're not just kind of like oh well, I can't go there anymore, that's it, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Yeah, um I definitely think kink should stay in pride, especially because of like the history it's had and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Also, the massive crossover between the two groups as well. Like, there's so many queer kinky people, oh yeah, and so many kinky queer people, absolutely, yeah. Like, I think because the two groups merge so much, like it makes sense for them just to all be together anyway, because like there is like a massive crossover and it allows like people to just get on with everybody and bring everybody together and not have to like choose sides like between the two if like they're gonna be like segregated.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Yeah, I mean I'm pretty sure that we'll be able to find a drag queen who has one a leather harness or something like that. Absolutely. Um mixed um the lovely, what would you call them? Lifestyles?

SPEAKER_02 20:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Possibly for certain people. Yeah, everybody is different how they see stuff. Um, some people have their kinks, some people have a lifestyle, because I I have my lovely lifestyle, that's how I lead it. Yeah, another thing is just why censor our own identities. Another big thing would be um yeah, there's just no point in censoring who we are, yeah. Um diluting pride down basically into it's it's just like a more PC version, basically.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Like a more like I think like obviously back in the day there was such a taboo around homosexuality that obviously there is still there in some spaces, but generally these days, like it's a lot more accepted, yeah, and the same cannot be said of kink, and it feels unfair that like because of that, like sometimes I feel like that's part of the reason why it's kind of getting pushed to the side, because like it is like the less acceptable side of pride, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

And like it's shown as a lot more sexual, yeah, and I think that definitely is such a shame because again, it's all down to adult perspectives of hardly see it.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Just like you can celebrate homosexuality, not just like celebrating the sexual side of that, but the culture and everything that comes along with it, so you can with kink because there's so much of a community and so much culture there that match that like it doesn't just have to be about like the sexual side of things.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Yeah. So Pride actually came about um in the first place about a year. It was actually on the anniversary of the Stonewall riots um in America, and it started in 1970, um, and during the Stonewall Uprising there was like many who fought hand in hand against the police, including a lot of like the leather community um who actually like Leatherburge all the way from the 1940s up to the 1950s and 60s in Stonewall um had become like safe spaces for queer people, and this is like we're part of this kind of like cohesion of the movements or like kind of in together like right from the start. They've kind of went hand in hand and like kind of helped each other out right from the beginning because of this kind of crossover of people anyway.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Um see this just shows that we are a community and we have been there for each other at the start. It was all seen as a taboo, it was all seen as this shouldn't be here, you shouldn't be doing this, it's disgusting, it's dirty. Against the kind of heterosexual, like normative, like exactly way that was yeah, it it wasn't right or anything like that. It was absolutely horrible back in the day. I would not love to be there in that position because it was so terrifying to some people, and the way the community stood together, and the way the community stood together when it was the raid? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Um yeah, so they raided um the police raided the Stonewall Inn in 1969, which was one of the largest private gay clubs in the US at the time, and the patrons of the bar included like trans women of colour, um, homeless queer teens, drag queens, lesbians, and leather daddies who all fought side by side during the riot and all came together the following year to create pride and to celebrate that movement of like um yeah, just like fighting back and creating a place for themselves in society and standing up and being heard really and being seen.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

And as I said, we do not want to decompromise that. Compromise that? Compromise. No, decompromise, yeah. That's the wrong word. Um you've lost me. I'm trying to think of a certain word. Um, yeah, we don't want to like oppress people. That's a word.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

I don't know what you're gonna say after this to like give me context.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Oppressing people at an event to fight back being oppressed isn't a compromise.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

No, you've say that again.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Sorry. Oppressing people at an event, uh pride, yeah, to fight back being oppressed isn't a compromise.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

No, like that just doesn't make sense in and of itself, especially when like from what I've just said, like the leather community, which is part of the kink community and the gay community, was at Stonewall, was actually part of the creation of pride in the beginning, and has been like a fundamental like part of like the gay community since well before, like since the 40s, at the very least, you know. So yeah, they've always been like a fundamental part of what's been going on.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Yeah, so I think the conclusion for myself is if you have a kid, tell them about it, or let them think it's just a man in a dog mask.

SPEAKER_03 26:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

In the UK at least, we do not have any 18 plus pride events. Yeah. In the US they do, and they're 18 plus anyway. Um they have certain events for that for kinky people. Whereas in the UK we don't, and it is very much it's very much PG, honestly, in the UK, I would say. It's not necessarily exactly. I I definitely a hundred percent think Kink does deserve to be in pride. You just need to be advised of what goes on. Like they're not gonna be having sex or anything like that. Nobody is going to do any horrific acts, no, it's going to be beautiful self-expression, freedom, and it's it's so beautiful seeing people be themselves. Why on earth would you not want somebody to not be themselves? Why do you want to control what somebody else is doing with their life just to satisfy you, basically? And that is what we don't want to do with pride.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

It takes away from like what the message of pride actually is.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Which is like about politics, activism, representation, and just being your sexual self. Like, and that should include everybody.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Yeah. Whoever that looks even the protesters, it still includes them. Like, I I'm sure deep down they have lovely feelings, and like it it's a real shame because I know for a fact that even some protesters they could possibly be gay or bisexual, non-binary, but because they've suppressed it for so long and they've convinced themselves that it's dirty or they don't want to do it, or even if they have a type of fetish and they've convinced themselves that it's a stin, it's taboo, it's disgusting, all that stuff. It that's really fucking sad. Yeah. That they've got that far in their life and they can't be who they are.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

Yeah, like they've got such strong feelings about it, but are just having to point it in a different direction.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Exactly. Like, like don't be angry at people who are actually free to be themselves just because you can't actually escape that box. It is sometimes the sad, sad truth. Um what else do we have to talk about?

SPEAKER_01 29:14

So we've kind of spoken about like kink being at pride, and I know like from some of the conversations that we've had, like there's kind of different like categories within like the kink umbrella in terms of like how we speak about different people and like are there kind of levels of like interest and intent on things in terms of like kinksters and then like fetishists and then like lifestylers, and like do you feel like everybody under that umbrella like comes under that like kinosexuality side of things and should be like involved in pride? What like people who are just like kinksters just have a kink, yeah, or like people who like have a very specific fetish because yeah, as we've just said, it's about freedom, yeah, and talking about expression and sexuality and being who you are, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

You can absolutely celebrate that. So I I would say yeah, like you you have a kink, celebrate it. Don't I'm not saying go out and like rank off in a bunch in front of strangers or something like that. But if you are a pop, then go out. If you are a furry, go out in your fursuit. Um show that people aren't alone.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Yeah, totally. That's I think that's the biggest bit is like I think growing up and kind of like realizing that you're into kink and stuff, it can be quite isolating if like everybody in your peers or that you're like speaking to at the time like doesn't feel that way. Yeah. And like I think having something as big and colourful and wonderful as pride, and like having that be like a representation of like people just being true to themselves, etc. Like it can be quite like validating and quite like useful for people to see if they're still kinda at the start of that journey.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

It's like back in the day in the 60s or even before that, um, drag queens were just known as cross dressers, and that was a kink, yeah. Um, just in itself, drag I guess didn't exist really, because they were just called cross-dressers.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

And it was illegal as well.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Um that was one of the other things that we didn't mention was that um many of the leaders of the queer liberation movement at the time, um, including Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera, had actual cross-dressing charges on their records and were considered kinky by the definition at the time.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Yeah, so kink has been there all along for so many years, and we've all stood by each other no matter what, and we've stood up, even getting arrested and having charges and oh having God knows what done to us. And just fighting for like basic human rights alongside, like there was a schoolgirl, um, sadly, who was murdered not that long ago, and she was trans in England, and they did that because she was trans. And it's like it still is happening. Trans people are still getting murdered, LGBTQ plus people. People are getting murdered, kink people are getting murdered. Like we we are still fighting so much to live and have freedom and just exist and be happy. Exactly. Like we are putting ourselves at risk, absolutely. I want to say that is the sad reality of actually speaking up and saying something. But we have to because if you're not gonna do it, who is? Yeah. Like we get stronger by every person who I was gonna say join us, but it's not a cult who just stands by us and understands what pride stands for. And going back to Kinksters and drag queens, kings, BDSM, leather daddies, we all stay together through Stonewall uprising against the police, and then we also had HIV and AIDS epidemic, and we continued to stay a community even through the harshest of times. We still stay together, so I don't see a reason of splitting that up and banning kink.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Especially when like the fight's not over.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

Exactly. It's never gonna be over, I don't think. I think there will always be people who from my perspective, it's usually older people, sadly. Um, especially in my type of work where older people have been shunned, it usually is um cross-dressing.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

And they've come to see me in their 50s or older, and they haven't been able to do it because it's such a taboo, and they've been so afraid.

SPEAKER_03 35:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

And that is absolutely what we are doing with the younger generation.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

I remember meeting um a guy at one of your um events, uh-huh, and it was it was the same, like he was in his 50s, and it was the first time he had ever been out and cross-dressing, and bless him, he was so happy. It was like he finally, after all these years, finally got to be his cell and show his cell to the world, and like you could tell it was just like beeping ear to ear on it, he was having a great time. Like, it actually was just so lovely to see. Like, it actually made me a bit emotional at the time, to be honest, because like I just couldn't imagine what a life he'd lived, you know, having to like keep this side of his cell hidden, yeah. Like, even like he was married and his wife didn't know where he was and what he was out doing. And like, for you to have to hide that side of yourself from like the most important person in your life, even who you've known for like 20 plus years, like just fills me with such like sadness. It is, it was so bittersweet like meeting him, like yeah, but it gave me hope, you know, like it was nice. Overall, it was nice.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Absolutely. There need to be there needs to be more clubs, there needs to be more dungeons, there needs to be more swingers, there needs to be more places where people can relax and have fun, and it doesn't it's not CD or anything like that, it's genuine community spaces where we can hang out, be ourselves, be free, yeah, have fun, and not feel judged, yeah, and forget about the stress of life and just relax and get to know people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

I definitely think we should do just an episode on like the kink community in Scotland and like Oh, that's a big episode, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Yeah, that sounds like a good episode. And it's for Scotland, Scotland's got a bit of a way to go, I feel.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

We've had some we've definitely had some new things popping up the last wee while it'll be interesting to see how like how things are looking over the next year as everything kind of or the new stuff settles in.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

We shall see.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

You can never have enough, you know.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

That's oh no no, absolutely. I mean, compared to England, in the whole of Scotland there's like four dungeons, if you could call some of them that honestly. Um because with some of them it's just like a room. Um it's a shame, it really is a shame, and trust me, it was a very much a shock coming here to Scotland when I was used to like uh dungeons and swinger clubs being like not like the next town over not even there was so many, and I come up here and it's like ah, only a few, only a few, that's it. So yeah, we could absolutely talk about an episode about um kink.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Yeah, like the kink community in Scotland and also like the create kink oppression in Scotland, I think would be like quite a good follow-on for this because I've got a lot to say.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Um what is the time we're on? I feel like we've nearly hit 45 minutes. I think that's about it.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Yeah, I think we've kinda covered pretty much everything we're wanting.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Like, yeah, yeah. So for the next episode, we have no idea what to talk about next. If you have any suggestions, you are more than welcome to. We do have a Twitter slash X at behind the paddle podcast. I'm sure you will be able to find us. And of course, we have an email address, yeah, which is behind the paddle podcast at gmail.com. Yep. We have a bonus episode. So, with the bonus episodes, what they contain is oh, how to explain this best. You message us, we talk about a lovely little tribute, and then we humiliate you on the podcast for all to hear. This bonus episode will be on our dark fans, so yeah, it's gonna be a lot of fun. So basically, you write in, you tell us your confessions, or show us a picture or a video, and you send a tribute, and then we just rip the shit out of you. Um, we can also just on the podcast in general, um, help with advice or if you have any questions. Um as we said earlier on, I'm sure we will have a QA episode at some point with l lots and lots of questions. And about the shop.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Yeah, um, so obviously I own the Sanctuary of Sun, and if you want to get a Wii discount, um just use the code behind the paddle at www.sancthesancuryofsun.com and that will get you a 10% discount off all our lovely goodies.

SPEAKER_00 40:54

Yeah. And if you didn't listen to the first episode that we did, well go check that out already. We spoke about Electrics 101 and it's it's a very good lesson, it's a very funny, very good lesson. Um, and I think that's roundabouts. Yeah, yeah. So I have been Porcelain Victoria from behind the paddle. And Emily Sun from The Sanctuary of Sun. Thanks for listening, guys. Yeah, thank you. Don't forget to follow, subscribe, or whatever buttons there are. Yeah. Bye.