Behind the Paddle
Welcome to "Behind the Paddle", the podcast that explores the fascinating world of sex across a wide spectrum of topics; from LGBTQ+ and feminine power, to kink, sex work and the adult industry. We aim to inform, inspire and entertain, featuring expert interviews, compelling stories, and thought provoking discussions.
Join Porcelain Victoria (a very experienced Pro-Dominatrix of 7yrs) and Emily Sin (owner of The Sanctuary of Sin and Co-host of Uncensored Market) on a funny and wonderfully truthful look at the world through the lens of BDSM practitioners working in the sex industry.
They will also be answering listeners questions about real-life queries which will be discussed on the podcast. These can be sent in via email or through any
socials.
Feeling a bit more daring? Send them in your photos, videos and messages, alongside a tribute and be prepared for public humiliation and degradation as they delve into the more intense aspects of kink and submission.
Email: behindthepaddlepodcast(at)gmail.com
Our socials: https://allmylinks.com/behindthepaddle
Behind the Paddle
E7: Holy Trinity of Kink
On today's episode we explore the venn diagram of kinky spaces. What do kinky, queer and neurodivergent people have in common?
We will discuss our personal experiences of these groups within the bdsm scene as well as some of the research done on this topic. How many boxes do you tick? 😉
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Thank you so much for listening 💖
Hi guys, hi, welcome to Behind the Paddle podcast. I am Porcelain Victoria and I am Emily Sin. Yeah, and we are here today to talk about what is our lovely title for today? Did we pick a title?
Speaker 2:I think. So I've put Neuro Spicy Peeps in kink, yeah.
Speaker 1:Working title so that is what we're going to talk about today, yeah, which is a lovely topic because it always interests me. On, is there more Neuro Spicy Peep in kink than not.
Speaker 2:It's something I definitely noticed coming into the scene everywhere we went. It was just like my people it is nice.
Speaker 1:I find just kink in general just easier to make friends over because it's just either a lifestyle or it's a common interest to people.
Speaker 2:Even my non kinky friends I've been like come you'll meet somebody friends over, because it's just either a lifestyle or it's a common interest to people. Even like my non-kinky friends, I've been like, come, like you'll meet somebody. Yeah, it's just like a good night, like you just meet really lovely people. Yeah, just on the same wavelength as you, it's nice yeah, the majority of people in kink are very freedom and all that stuff so there's not much bad.
Speaker 2:I want to say there's always that bad apple, but the people who I have came across yeah, I feel like that's just everywhere, and the majority of times when I've been out and been at things, there's been more than one bad apple for the most part.
Speaker 1:I don't want to say we have that thing where we just attract yeah, a million percent but yeah, recently we went to this lovely event. There's not many events in Scotland, which is why in September we will be going to one called Bitches Unleashed Down in Manchester. So excited.
Speaker 2:And next week we're going down to Gloucester for.
Speaker 1:FetFest as well. You still won't get your tickets.
Speaker 2:They're not going to sell.
Speaker 1:It'll be fine.
Speaker 2:It'll be fine. We kind of always tend to travel a wee bit further for events, for the most part, yeah, which is a shame, because the ones that are here are good and it's no to say anything like against the ones that are there there's just not enough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's not enough. Yeah, but the one that we went to on Friday runs every month, which is fine when it lines up with work and stuff but doesn't always for us and we use as well most people know, I do have a wee one, so it is difficult just to go to clubs and things like that. But yeah, there's not that much up here, sadly for me as well.
Speaker 2:I don't drink, so as much as it's fun like sometimes, it would be nice to have like a non-drink environment to go to or at least one that's not as clubby like I do enjoy it, but it's still very much like a clubby atmosphere well, yeah, because even munches, yeah, are mostly drink.
Speaker 1:I mean, it is scotland, you know, we can only ask so much of people, but that there there is um a munch, which when well, I I'll be mainly referring to uh, which is lg ra yeah, which means uh, let's get rat ass scottish.
Speaker 2:I think you mean arsed arsed arsed scotland's finest that is just.
Speaker 1:I was like oh, that's what that means um, but yeah, I, I used to have my own place, my own wee dungeon, and run events from that and stuff. Hopefully more in the future, because that was awesome yeah.
Speaker 2:That was great. That was how we met. We were going like every single time because it was great having another event in Scotland that wasn't so drink focused. Yes, just for us personally. It's not to say that that's a bad thing, but just for what we enjoy and we would like to do when we go out like it was perfect.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm gutted hopefully in a few years. I keep getting asked by people yeah, just like when you're opening up a new dungeon, I'm just like no, not yet not yet few years I want to buy again and things so, and it takes a while to build the dungeon back up, there's a reason why there's not many. Yeah, there is a lack of dungeons In Scotland. There's like Well, I'm sure we can get into how many there is, but there's less than Like five Open dungeons and there's only two dungeons that actually Supply equipment.
Speaker 2:And I don't believe really any of them run events. No, none of them, for the most part.
Speaker 1:So none of this, none the the two which do have equipment, they don't run events.
Speaker 2:It's all like private hire, private yeah private.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, I mean what once? Once I get my dungeon, it will be fully out as a dungeon and everybody will know about it. So we'll see. We'll see how Scotland deals with that, to be fair you're fighting the good fight.
Speaker 2:We'll get there.
Speaker 1:You'll get there eventually but no, we went to a lovely event called Club T, filled with some lovely people yeah, it's great.
Speaker 1:Based in the polo lounge in glasgow for people that don't know yeah, it's, and that is. It's a nice welcoming atmosphere. Yeah, to say it's not like quiet or anything because, it is a nightclub, so there will be people drinking, partying and doing scenes yeah I mean we could do another podcast episode on the difference between a play party and munch and like certain different events. That'd be great but yeah, love club tea whenever I'm able to go like it's it's, yeah, it's good completely full of the gunnels of neuro spicy people.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, which was blatantly obvious, the first time I ever went um and has been to every single kink event I've been to since up and down the country it's great um, between that, that and just queer as well, there's just lovely bunch of people, lovely good mixture of just yeah, it's lovely.
Speaker 1:It's such a welcoming environment. You can easily tell that nobody's going to judge you or anything like that, because we're all into freaky shit and like we're all very excited about it and want to talk about it as well, which is nice, and I'm sure again we could do another podcast episode where people with trauma are into kink as well.
Speaker 2:Not everybody, but there is there's another wee like Venn diagram there as well. Yeah, yeah, totally um but yeah, club T awesome. So after we had the wee chat, after we came back from Club T and we were like is there a reason I have to throw in chips at you? And on the roof of her car and at the seagull. The seagull did nothing.
Speaker 1:I was so mad. It was great. I loved it.
Speaker 2:It was so fun the things you see in McDonald's car parks at 3 in the morning me getting out of the car swearing at you we probably weren't the weirdest people there oh, I don't know actually that's probably unfair.
Speaker 2:But yeah, so we're having a chat and we're talking about like just the fact that there is so many kind of neuro spicy people in kink and like has there been any studies on this? Like what, is there a reason for it? What was kind of behind, like what is going on here? Basically it's something I've heard people talking about but not really getting into like the nitty-gritty behind, like why that is or if there is a reason, if it's just a coincidence like how our brain is wired, who knows?
Speaker 1:yeah, we'll find out yeah, cool.
Speaker 2:So, um, the first thing that I kind of looked into was like is there actually a prevalence of neuro spicy people like, are we just in a bit of an echo chamber at events that we've been? Is this like a thing that is kind of worldwide? Um, so there's been a couple of different studies done. Um, there was like one in australia that was done where they found that 5.7 percent of bdsm practitioners who responded to an online survey actually sorry this was, they were based in australia, but it was an online survey open to everyone, um reported an autism diagnosis which is more than 5 times the approximate 1% prevalence in the general population.
Speaker 2:So in terms of representing what's going on in general society, there's 5 times the amount of kinky people sorry, 5 times the amount of autistic people at kinky events than the national average would be. So there does definitely seem to be a higher occurrence of people.
Speaker 1:What year was this in? Was this in 2017 or 18? 2017. So that's fairly recent.
Speaker 2:I would like to say I feel like that 1% has went up since 2018 as well oh, with everything.
Speaker 1:Everything's been way more open these days and I think with everybody being open and expressing more aware of themselves and more self-reflective and stuff as well I think covid left a lot of people with a lot of time to think, yeah, and it has led to some kind of self-discovery.
Speaker 2:It's led to a lot of stuff like both kinky and otherwise you know yeah, gender yeah um, just finding out about yourself and becoming more of who you want to be and kink and exploring for autistic people as well, taking them out of a situation if they were working full time where they're having to mask every day, and taking them out of that situation for more than a year. It makes sense why so many people. It's so tiring. I'm still working on it. It's like before, where I was just staring at you.
Speaker 1:So many people. It's so tiring. Yeah, I'm still working on it.
Speaker 2:It's like before, where I was just staring at you.
Speaker 1:It's like yeah, I understand, I was just creepily staring into her soul. It was fine, I'm used to it, it's all right. She was like you okay.
Speaker 2:I was just distracted me. You looked horrified. I was like what have I seen? I was like I'm trying to concentrate.
Speaker 1:This is my concentration face this is my masking face, just like right. Yes, I see, this is my masking face, just like right yes, I see oh yeah it's not like it cool.
Speaker 2:So another study was done in Australia as well, where they were asking like open-ended. They were doing like open-ended interviews with autistic women and found that several respondents who were engaged in like diverse and inclusive communities so including kink that could also be like LGBT, trans, like just any of the kind of alternate communities. All the good stuff, yeah, all the ones that we want to be involved in yeah, yeah, yeah, what you?
Speaker 2:would assume as well. Yeah, I feel so. The ones that were engaged in that prided themselves on living an alternate lifestyle and such as participating in the kink community, where gender normative performance is less restrictive. So that's kind of going on what we were saying before as well, where, like people kind of unmasking a wee bit during COVID and stuff and like just generally like the kink community and the type like the events and stuff that we were talking about are a place where people can unmask, which means it's just bringing people in that way as well, like people are finding their people, yeah, and finding a place where they can come and be themselves, and it's maybe like kind of self. Um, what's the words?
Speaker 2:like when you find yourself like because, because it's an open and inclusive space, that's what's attracting people in, that's just making it an even more inclusive space. Yeah, do you know what I Like a self-fulfilling kind of prophecy yeah, circle of life, let's go with that, something like that this is the special so there was another study done in 2017 where they sampled 132 US-based adults, 44 of which said they had an autism diagnosis.
Speaker 2:Again another online survey where they found that autistic males had higher levels of both sadistic and masochistic fantasy and behaviour than allistic males, and then both autistic and allistic females.
Speaker 1:What does allistic mean? So that's neurotypical so someone who isn't neurodivergent.
Speaker 2:So they found that autistic males generally were more like, had more sadistic and masochistic fantasies and behaviours than everybody else, including autistic females, which is interesting.
Speaker 1:I mean, I remember when I was younger, being a good masochist and sadistic. I'm on board with that too. That's so interesting. And like sadistic, I'm on board with that too. That's so interesting.
Speaker 2:Huh, so this is the case in the US as well. That's what we've kind of personally came across Nowhere is safe. So there was aish commenter who wrote that, um, sex is another area, so he was speaking about like aspergers in particular.
Speaker 2:This was back and oh, I was gonna say back in, it was only in 2020, it's not aspergers isn't really used as a term, but I've not really seen it used in like actual research papers and stuff as much these days, like I thought that term, at least in the kind of scientific field, has kind of been. I could be wrong on that one. Huh, anyway, he's using aspies, which is cute as fuck. I love that. That's a cute little pet name. So he was saying sex is another area where aspies can be extreme one way or the other. Some are not at all interested in sex, so like asexual or body contact, while for others sex seems to become something of a special interest. Hey, yeah, I also understand that. Deviant sexuality so us again.
Speaker 2:Kinky is relatively common among aspies, as are paraphilias, which is fetishies, so like yeah like your latex and I can't think of any others at the moment other than latex, but you get the drift.
Speaker 1:Oh god, I can't remember now. Fetish, is that you?
Speaker 2:need it, you need it, yeah, you need it, which is why I'm struggling to think of anything, because it is literally everything, yeah, like anything you can think is somebody's got a fetish for it, um, yeah, so they're a lot more common, and um, neuro spices as well. And yeah, he's basically saying, like when it comes to sex, that it goes into the extremes either one way or another, like there's a lot less people in the middle yeah like that are neuro divergent, like they tend to kind of go one way or another and even like within kink, I would say it's the same.
Speaker 2:Like there's quite a lot of like asexual people that turn to kink as a way to like connect with people, of which we've seen at tea and stuff as well, and like this is where just everybody's like coming together and yeah I'm just thinking.
Speaker 1:I'm like, do I do I trust a non-spicy that's a? Whole other podcast I'm like, I like my spicies. Yeah, the spicies I get along with very well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's the whole thing like where is it like we can't empath, like how a lot of autism diagnoses you say about autistic people not being able to like empathise with other people, but it's came out that that's not the case.
Speaker 2:It's just that autistic people can't empathise with holistic people and vice versa, so they kind of cross the streams kind of thing, and they actually have a lot of empathy with each other in their own groups and it's just that the communication styles don't. They're just like no cross compatible. So it makes sense that you feel that way, because I don't even know, if I know anybody that's known you're a diverger at this point.
Speaker 1:Certainly know anybody that I interact with by choice on the regular, like yeah, it's like if I date somebody I kind of need them to have a bit of spicy yeah, so it's more relatable yeah and we like go through the same stuff and think the same way.
Speaker 2:Yeah like you understand each other. Yeah, because otherwise you're just at like cross purposes all the time exactly it's so much easier. It feels the same with kink for me, like I don't think I could ever date someone who's not kinky. Oh, I've not heard this story, the baby daddy? I didn't know he was na kinky. No, he was not kinky.
Speaker 1:I tried to convert him how did that go? Not well, not well at all he just didn't understand it at all.
Speaker 2:He didn't understand it at all.
Speaker 1:He didn't. I feel like when you do kink with somebody, you need to feel the urge of actually being kinky and wanting to do that specific thing.
Speaker 2:I like it, it's no something. I don't know if it's fair to say it's no something you can learn, but I feel like, oh, you can learn it, yeah learn as in the want for it.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, you need to have the want for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like that's no something the want for it's no something that you learn in my opinion I'm not saying that's the case for everybody and people change so much over their lifetimes it's not to say that that isn't something that could come up for you later in life, but I don't think it's something you could you know, I mean yeah yeah, like it's something that needs to be something there, yeah, in your head.
Speaker 1:That needs to like spark or something when you do try something. Yeah, kinky, I, I don't think like it's a difficult one because you can try and convert somebody or like open up their mind, but it's down to them how they take that and if they have the urges to do kinky stuff see, I don't even know if it is like down to them, like I don't see it as like a choice thing.
Speaker 2:Do you know what I mean for me?
Speaker 1:like I see kink as a.
Speaker 2:I see it as like a sexuality like it is or it isn't, and it's a need that's another podcast.
Speaker 1:Is it sexuality?
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't give a shit about it, it's just labels at the end of the day that's why I'm saying that is my opinion, because it's not something I'm going to argue with somebody about. Do you know what I mean? It's just that is the box it fits into in my head for me personally, and I get that.
Speaker 1:It's different for their people and that's fine yeah, like in my head, it's hard to understand how it is a sexuality um, but for me because, yeah, it's just difficult to understand.
Speaker 2:I think like for me, it being a sexuality, is the same same as how I feel like a fetish is a sexuality. If it's something that you need, then it's not a choice, and if it's not a choice, then it's something that it's not an on-off thing.
Speaker 1:Ohhhh, it's not that way.
Speaker 2:yeah, Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I need kink.
Speaker 2:Aye, I need that to function. That's not an option for me. It's something that I would struggle in my life if I didn't have this day and age.
Speaker 1:You can have more than one sexuality, oh, definitely, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's fine, you can have them all if you want. It's probably not going to make a lot of sense, but it only needs to make sense to you at the end of the day. Okay, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:That makes sense. Yeah, Fuck anything with legs but, needs kink? Okay, I can do that.
Speaker 2:I think because a lot of asexuals there's loads of different types of asexual and not all of them necessarily involve having sex with another person it becomes about what you need to be happy.
Speaker 1:That's why I feel kink fits in the same.
Speaker 2:That's what you need to be happy Aww, aww, that's what you need to be happy Look. Aww, aww, maybe that is my sexuality, then Probably going to piss some people off, and I apologise Like I'm not looking to change anybody's minds here. It's just how I feel.
Speaker 1:No, because that makes sense, because I do believe I need kink to have a relationship To have like a healthy fulfilling.
Speaker 2:Being true to myself.
Speaker 1:I haven't figured out. I can't even say the words. It doesn't matter, I haven't figured out if I need both like because I'm a switch. I haven't figured out if I need, like, the submissive urges and the dom urges. I haven't figured that shit out yet Mine flip, flip.
Speaker 2:See, because I said a year the other day. It's been I think like two and a half years I've been doming, but I don't do it like regularly.
Speaker 2:I've had like quite long breaks in between, so that's why it always feels like a lot less time, but I'm like the amount that is happening is more now, if that makes sense. In the last year it's been um more, but for me, like I've lived my full life just being submissive and never really even questioned it. But that has been because of my upbringing, which is why I've, like, really struggled. I'm going back. I've been like wrestling with it.
Speaker 1:I'm going back to dark fans.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, I shut not literally shat.
Speaker 1:Not literally. Dog fans is an online paying subscription website where, if you want us to humiliate you, we absolutely can. But yeah, right, we're a bit off topic, but oh, it's fine, it's all relevant, we'll circle back.
Speaker 2:You know, spicy, we're going to get off track sometimes. Yeah, I was about to say yeah, it's all relevant, we'll circle back you know, spicy, we're gonna get off track sometimes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've got a new sexuality.
Speaker 2:I'm laughing because that makes so much sense to me so much.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I tried to convert him and it just didn't go well because he didn't have the urges, he didn't see the need for it or anything like that, like it didn't pop into his head yeah, every now and again.
Speaker 2:It didn't come naturally to him exactly.
Speaker 1:So some people like that sadly just can't be helped. Rip just, it doesn't work cool.
Speaker 2:so, circling back, um, we've kind of looked at like if there's evidence that there is like a kind of higher amount of neuro spicyspicy, people in kink, now we're going to have a wee look at the reasons why that is and what the kind of motivations are for people who are neuro-divergent and coming into this space and discovering it and what it does for them and why that could mean that there's more people getting in. So what it does for them and why that could mean that there's more people kind of, yeah, getting it.
Speaker 2:So, um, a lot of um, people with autism struggle with like sensory overload, um and like hypersensitivity, to like light, noise, touch. There's maybe certain things they really don't like and certain things they like more than a list of people would of the same thing, which, in a BDSM setting, makes total sense, because you're sitting down, you're putting ground rules, you're putting limits, you're saying what you like, what you don't.
Speaker 1:That's a lovely schedule.
Speaker 2:Yeah, really scheduled. You've got like one word and it stops. If you do get overwhelmed like you can end it straight away. Everything's like black and white, so there's no like reading between the lines like there's no potentially picking things up the wrong way, like everything is like straight in front of you is how it is and that's it In my head. It's simple. And then when we go into the sensory overload stuff, a lot of what people do in BDSM is sensory deprivation.
Speaker 1:So blindfolds, earphones's, quite like a common kink yeah, I'd say so it's, it's my um beginner 101 like it's quite like a good, a good start off, yeah, like you're not wrapping them up because you're like exploring each other and like kind of seeing, like yeah, yeah it is. It's nice and slow. Yeah, that's how I explain it. It's nothing like for me it's nothing extreme, it's nothing too rushed or anything like that.
Speaker 2:It's nice slow, calm, and it can be sensual, so yeah, so autistic psychologist Nick Walker has spoke about stimming, which is repeating a sensory producing action within neurodivergent people. I'm trying to think of any at the moment. I can't like.
Speaker 1:Fidget toys listening to the song over and over.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like cracking your fingers, tapping your feet, like literally anything you can do with your body, or like noises spinning's quite a common one, um literally anything that just like as a an action you're repeating over and over again, yeah, and it just like chills you out does that have something with, like the endorphins and stuff?
Speaker 2:well, I think it's like distraction, basically, so like if something, if you're feeling overwhelmed, it's giving you like something to focus on that is safe and repeatable and known, and like it's no gonna. You're not bringing any new information in, do you?
Speaker 2:know what I mean it's something like comfortable that you know what I mean. It's something like comfortable that you know and it's kind of bringing you back like out of your like overwhelmed state and back into your body. I would say so the yeah. So he was saying that through people stimming, sometimes people get into like flow states and experience like profound communion and like like ego transcendence, which is not something I've looked into or really came across before, but it makes total sense like essentially like going into a trance where, like doing like a repeatable action sorry, I'm staring at you like I was ignore me it's okay, it's another word that I've not came across before.
Speaker 1:What one, sorry ego, transcendence.
Speaker 2:It's like a trance, it's like I don't know how to explain this.
Speaker 1:I mean the other night I had a big, massive fucking ego. I can't remember that much but an ego trance.
Speaker 2:Transcendence is like kind of rising above, like reality. I want to say like, like a trance is probably the best way to describe that like going into a trance, like getting into like an altered state of mind, um, where you're kind of rising above like the day-to-day you're kind of reaching like a higher point in meditation or whatever is that sort of like subspace, then well, this is, this is what the guy is saying, that basically like in a much similar
Speaker 2:way to bdsm, that they think that bdsm is just stimming. It's just stimming with extra steps. Essentially that, and it matches up to a lot of the things that we were saying before. You know, like it's a repeatable action, it's something you're comfortable with. It brings you out of your shell into something known and comforting.
Speaker 1:I kind of want to test this out next time I do a scene or something, as me, as the sob, but do things over and over and over again.
Speaker 2:Well, I feel like that for me anyway. That gets me into subspace much more, like if we were doing like an impact scene or something like I need that steady, like rhythmic, like if something changes, that like brings me back into like reality, like it needs to be, that almost like meditative, like oh interesting. It makes sense like I've never managed that with stimming, but maybe I should get a try that's what I mean.
Speaker 2:This is very interesting, yeah, so evidence of flow are also observed and reported as results of BDSM. So I think flow is just the same.
Speaker 2:Getting into that kind of different altered state of mind subspace to us, flow to the scientists have to make it sound fancy yeah, um, there was another study done by barnett in 2015 that is just talking about kind of the opposite and that, like sensory, like hypersensitivity, can be quite like dysregulating during sex. So like having not like I don't want to say normal, I'm pure offending myself here like vanilla sex, like we know, kind of prior discussion or whatever right could lead to you becoming over, like the person becoming overwhelmed, oh, because they've not set the boundaries, they've not put the things in place to say like, oh, the back, some arms are really sensitive, or like whatever.
Speaker 2:You know that like regular vanilla sex could just be overwhelming and never really be pleasurable for them, because they're not able to do it in a way that's there's no stim and then also there's no rules set in place to stop the things that like trigger them, and having the two of them together is just a no go so many extra steps for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, makes it so much better. Though. You know it's worth it, I don't know. Fair, yeah, so, like this other study is basically looking at people using BDSM as a way of choosing accommodations to be made for them in their sex life in regards to their diagnosis, and that being a way that people have found to regulate that on their own, without it being known as that, but that's essentially the job that it's doing, which is pretty cool.
Speaker 1:I really should actually read the file that you give me, because this is like, hmm, this is giving a natural response, so I'm very happy.
Speaker 2:I feel like having a bit of a mixture of stuff like that is good, like not everything needs to be like. I know I'm being quite like that. I will gain in confidence as we go on, and I will not be like my notes.
Speaker 1:I find it very difficult you know that I'm telling the people who are listening I find it very difficult when there's just words, so many words, even if they're highlighted.
Speaker 1:I need to also, like know the context as well so I will need to like, read more um, and then I've got a memory like a goldfish which does not help. So this is nice. This is nice. I am very enjoying this lovely dynamic of wow, wow, because this is just so interesting that just spicy people are just very spicy and breaking it down into so many different steps and hopefully that people people listening realize oh, maybe I do that yeah or like oh, that makes sense. Yeah, because like this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think that's like really interesting and also like affirming for me as well, you know like it makes total sense and a lot of this is like ringing true for me, like as I was researching it and like as I'm reading it now and putting it in different words and stuff, it's like I don't know. This is my experience as well. I don't know about you the sex part.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I'll need to have a think while I'm doing it, that's in my head because I've never thought I'll need to have a think while I'm doing it.
Speaker 1:That's in my head because I've never thought of it like that. Yeah, I'm like straight up sex that's kind of fine with me, because that's I'm just fine with that. But now I'm like I'm going to be thinking about this next time I have sex, just like do I really like this? Do I need to change anything what's triggering me? Like I need to change anything what's triggering me. I need to do an experiment. That's so interesting. Oh, but then this part of me is like Is Like kink? Yes, I need it, and it is very, very different. Now in my head I'm just like I need to tally up what is different with kink and just sex.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh, I way prefer kink, yeah, but huh, it's where that line is as well, because, like, kink doesn't have to be about any actions you're doing or any activities, it's about vibe yeah, it can just be vibe. It doesn't even have to be words or actions, so like what could look from the outside, to just be like vanilla, like could could have a kink, like in there, depending on like where you've came at that from.
Speaker 1:Do you know what I mean. I'm gonna need to get back into therapy. It's blurry. This is so interesting.
Speaker 2:So another study by Boucher in 2018 was looking at BDSM practitioners, both autistic and allistic, to see what was the most important thing for them.
Speaker 2:Like what was the most important thing for them like what was the need there from, um, their like kink scenes, and for holistic people it was commands and demands, so the more kind of power play sides of things, whereas for autistic people it was more bondage and restraint, so the more sensory side of things and the kind of choice side of things like still power play in both. But it's interesting that I don't know that that's been my experience, thinking about the people that I know and also myself. But it's interesting that that is something that's came up. Yeah, because I would have thought it would have been the other way around.
Speaker 2:Huh, being like the clear directions being the thing that was drawing like autistic people. Yeah to that like knowing where they stand and knowing what they have to do, and like it makes sense for people that feel a bit lost with that sometimes, like wanting a space where that is just taken away, or someone who really wants their routine and needs everything to be exactly as they always have it. Having a space where that that is carried out for them makes more sense to me as being the like driving force behind that than just not just but the sensory side of things, but it's interesting yeah, I'd like to know more about the psychology of that and just why there needs to be more studies.
Speaker 1:I know it feels like I'm being like study, study, study.
Speaker 2:But for each of these topics if this was in a different subject, there'd be 30, 40 studies on this one thing, where most of them, there's just the one which. It gives you a set of information, but you don't really get the full picture. That could have been a fluke.
Speaker 1:You're not getting multiple studies all compared to each other to get a really clear idea of what's going on yeah, there's just not enough studies on BDSM in general and then anything that does include LGBT trans, anything under that rainbow, there's just not enough.
Speaker 2:No or women as well as we're talking about like our previous episode.
Speaker 1:Uh, we talked about periods and the fact that there wasn't that many studies on periods and it's like how, how isn't that? Yeah it's so interesting and it's a must. Blood comes out of us like why aren't there more studies about this? It's crazy, and it's the same with bdsm. Like it's our minds, it's our bodies, it's how we work. Why wouldn't you want to learn more about that?
Speaker 2:it like I mean, it was still like a mental illness, like in america, like what? Three, four years ago, was it even as recent as that?
Speaker 1:It's still a taboo. The thing which I've noticed is people like on TV. They are interested in the drama, they're interested in other people's lives.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:They like to watch rather than actually discuss and figure out why.
Speaker 2:They want it to be, they sensationalise it, they want it to sell stories and be really one extreme or the other, rather than looking at what it's like day to day.
Speaker 1:I feel like things are getting better. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:In terms of the law, it's not. But in terms of the law, it's not, but in terms of mainstream culture and people's awareness of things and understanding of things, I think is getting better. I think we're politics at the moment. That is a good and a bad thing, because people are picking a side rather than it being like a grey area in the UK we currently.
Speaker 1:What did we do? We voted. That's it we voted, so we now have a new prime minister that's what we call him. So we'll see what laws change or come in and everything like that yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to say anything that will be the rest of the time we shall see.
Speaker 1:We can do a podcast episode, I'm sure. But yeah, hopefully a lot more things change and evolve and just get better and more research happens. Yeah, cool.
Speaker 2:So more studies, but I've found this really interesting. So hopefully you guys, um, so this is going into the kind of social side of things now, um, and can be discussed in both like the, both the social cues and also just the community as a whole. So research has indicated that explicit and literal language that structures BDSM and kink practices is appealing to neurodivergent individuals, who may seek this form of communication within interpersonal relationships. What does that mean? So, basically, having rules is helpful. Oh, I love rules. Oh, rules are so nice.
Speaker 2:Constantly find yourself on the back foot with people and don't know what people are talking about and miss social cues and stuff. Like, having a really clear, concise, like this is what I want you to do. This is how I want you to do it, this is when I want you to do it by is really like freeing for people that are constantly missing the unspoken points and everyday conversations, um, and that, like bdsm is just fully that like throughout that everything's very direct and very clear and concise and easy to understand and there's consequences when it's not. So you know when you've missed things, yeah, and you know when you've did well, and that's great, yeah, yeah, that's like refreshing yeah that's cool.
Speaker 2:So yeah, just that, like there's, the expectations that people have of you are very clear as well like you're not gonna let people down, and if you are, you're gonna know about it just like what I'd say as well, and that that just suits neurodivergent people it's so satisfying um, I also found a study that was talking about this was was in 2022 by Price, that BDSM as we know it today should be added to the niche geek cultures list, because they were talking about the creation of the internet and the alternate culture that existed only with people meeting face to face previously, had kind of moved on to online during like the 90s and the 2000s and that, um, during this time, like the people that were making up these kind of communities and forums and stuff online tended to be the neurodivergent people because that was like their way of communicating.
Speaker 2:They found it easier to communicate with people over like the internet than they did in person. So, like the people that were setting up meetings and setting up groups and stuff kind of moved from like what this study suggests in neurotypicals back in the day. Sorry, I don't know if this is about running down.
Speaker 1:No, it's fine.
Speaker 2:I'm trying not to stare at you moved to um online groups and more kind of like geek culture and stuff talking about that music, one like communities built around like science fiction or amateur radio being more welcoming to autistic people than those built around sports or rock music because, one, it can be done from your house and two groups celebrated the accumulation of specific knowledge.
Speaker 2:So if you were really knowledgeable about a subject, that was amazing, whereas in other groups, for example, as they're saying, like sports, I feel like rock, music's a weird one. I feel like that's outdated, because I feel like, yeah, I was about to say you're a bit more friendly now these days we'll go with sports. I feel like that's quite generally more heteronormative. Past things, shall we say. Um, don't tend to be as excited by people knowing a lot. They tend to get quite offended by that.
Speaker 1:In my experience, so usually the guys get really defensive, especially if it's a woman, that's just like an old girl like you can't, women can't do that.
Speaker 2:You can't know more than them, that's anyway, don't get into it if it's like a gay or something like no, no, no, no, no no, um, so this this person was basically arguing that, um, geek culture is also neurodivergent culture, is also kink culture, because they've all kind of collided together in online spaces and that's just kind of continued till today. Um, that's where the kind of shifts been and I feel like I don't know. There seems to be like almost like two groups. When you go out, there's the old school kind of crowd and then there's the younger crowd and there does seem to be a bit of a difference. I don't know if you find that as well. Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2:yeah, it's still like you're in school, or something and I wonder if this is what it is. I wonder if this is like. I don't know enough of the older school crowd to say they're on Eurotypicals.
Speaker 1:Is this in kink? Yes, in kink, that's difficult, because I don't usually like the older people.
Speaker 2:They were more likely to be the people to have the buzz to go and meet people in person Not to say that folk that feels bad, to say about the people that don't, but they had to to go out their way to find events before the internet yeah, it's meant that they're made up of, like a different type of person they could be a bit more hardcore in that way because they had to like, fight to find yeah stuff and actually fight to actually enjoy life.
Speaker 1:Basically just saying because there was so much negativity back in the day like I I often say that I get clients who like to cross dress or yeah just just like kink, but they're in like their 50s or older and it just wasn't really that great back in the day. So there's a mix, I'd say definitely. I mean me personally. I don't usually mix with anybody older than like 35. Uh-huh, and that's being generous.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because they're just built different. I feel Uh-huh Like they're lovely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but we come from different generations and see things very much differently it depends on the person as well, obviously, but I know what you're saying from a general point of view and that doesn't necessarily change. Coming into a kink space as well, no, there's just more so kink space.
Speaker 1:I would say like that's how I see things yeah because you've also got the way that, how they used to do it back in the day, how their version of kink is like, say, for example, because I do do mixed services in a professional light and so I don't give the traditional dom where the men can't touch me and things like that like in that sense of like if, if I see a dom who's like older than 35 or something, they might not like the way I do it, and it might be the same way with just somebody in kink who is of that generation or older, yeah, where they'll be like very displeased of how you do something I mean it's just like that with everyone, yeah
Speaker 2:you know like that's not like a kink specific thing like everybody like thinks there way is the best way yep, yep, and it just so happens that the way changes over time, so like there is a different way with, like, older people and younger people.
Speaker 1:It's just kind of the older people who have met are more stubborn. Yeah, we all get like that.
Speaker 2:Just get 20 year we're not 15, 10 year, oh, I'm so old anyway aww, 10 year.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm so old, 25 it hurts cool.
Speaker 2:So, um, the kind of other thing I came across is, like we had we've kind of touched on this a bit that there is just like, also a prevalence of queer people in the kink community, and is it that there's more, um, there's a lot of neurodivergent people in kink, or is it that there's a lot of queer people in kink who happen to be neurodivergent? Like there's a kind of trifecta. I feel like the three of them all kind of bounce off each other I don't think there's enough uh-huh um studies about this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like going back to neuro. Is liking to be bound and sensory?
Speaker 2:and stuff is like why?
Speaker 1:yeah, like like I need that explanation of like why explain this to me in detail or bullet point it oh bullet, point it, please.
Speaker 2:I don't know about you, but I tend to flip between being totally overwhelmed and wanting nothing touching me. To like no, just generally to like sensory seeking where, like I want to try a new food every day, I want to do new things every day.
Speaker 1:And like I feel like we can't flip back and forth between those two and the sensory deprivation is quite nice when you're feeling overwhelmed I wonder if there's something there that is a form of stimming, a form of self-regulating and stuff but there does need to be studies done on this a million percent from what I've noticed is that the people who I usually come across is either straight guys who have just came into it, yeah, and they've took a deep dive to like the club or something, or seen me, and the majority of the time if they have no, not sense, if they have no need, if they have no urge, but they just want to try it.
Speaker 1:It's just like a curiosity usually they don't fucking try it again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, usually they're either weirded out or it just does nothing yeah like the amount of time that I've like had beginners come see me and they've got like a fantasy in their heads or something, or not even that, no, not even that they just want to explore.
Speaker 1:They just want to explore because maybe they have had a fantasy there's a range of people, but usually it comes down to do you actually have like the urge to explore this and do you have the want and do? You think about it? Yeah, but then that can come into, like when guys see porn and then they want to try in real life and it doesn't work out, and things like that. Yeah, but from my experience if they are not neuro spicy, it hasn't worked out that well, yeah oh, that's so.
Speaker 2:Do you think, like the majority of your um like pro dom clients are neuro spicy?
Speaker 1:oh, absolutely yeah, cool, absolutely yeah, um, I've got, I I've got a few clients who are even trans. Yeah, yeah, and femme presenting of um things yeah, I love it. I love having a spicy to have a session with and whatnot it it just flows so well. Yeah, it doesn't mean that I don't I dislike seeing straight guys usually yeah, uh, who want to try stuff?
Speaker 2:no but you just enjoy all of it and like it's nice to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, it's nice to be queer, it's nice to also just introduce people into it. Yeah, totally. It is sad when they go. Oh, this isn't affecting me, uh-huh. But it's also the joy of them finding out that A bit of themselves it's just the same, Absolutely.
Speaker 2:You know they're still answering a question at the end of the day.
Speaker 1:And that's what gives me joy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what about queer people then? Do you find that you see more like for prodom, do you see more neuro spicy people than you do queer people? Or do you think it's like a good mixture, like just to kind of go back to like the question we're on?
Speaker 1:I'd say I see more neuro spicy and I want to say that's because it's a difficult one, because there are guys who want to do stuff with other guys yeah but they don't want to admit, yeah, that they're queer or anything like that. I've been privy to one of these conversations you just want to put it down to it a kink, yeah, um. So it's a difficult way to draw the line in that way, which is just the case anyway.
Speaker 1:Like not everybody needs or wants a label yeah, yeah, and some, some people are scared of even thinking of it that way.
Speaker 2:It's the same even with neurodivergent. A lot of people don't want that label.
Speaker 1:Whereas I'm just like you, like dick, deal with it you like it, we all do it's fine.
Speaker 1:It's okay, I'm not going to shun you or stick a label on you or anything like that. I don't give a shit, just take it, live your life and everything like that. Um, so it's a bit difficult with that to actually say if I see more queer or neuro spicy, but I want to say more neuro spicy. Yeah, and I see neuro spicy, so do not realize they're NeuroSpicy. Yeah, like I have somebody who listens to the podcast actually, oh nice, hi, and they're NeuroSpicy. And they talk to me about NeuroSpicy people and I'm just like you're NeuroSpicy too, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You're the freaking very yeah. So I would say I see more Neurospices.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I won't be asking more questions, but I'm like we're running out of time.
Speaker 1:A wee bit we can do part two, that's fine, okay, but I do have somebody, so we do go live on Insta and Twitter when we pre-record the podcast and stuff we need to discuss as well if somebody requests to speak on one of the lives, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I just had that. Yeah, but yeah, what other questions?
Speaker 2:Oh, it was just to ask will we do this on the next one? Will we round off here? Oh, okay yeah, yeah. We'll do, because I feel like queerness and kinks is a whole subject in and of itself and we can speak about that as well as the wee bits and pieces that are related to neurodivergence in part two.
Speaker 1:Do you want to do the part two right after this? Then, yeah, let's do it Right. We are going to neurodivergence in part two and then I want to do the part two right after this. Yeah, okay, let's do it right.
Speaker 2:We are gonna round off and we will come back with a part two, because this has taken quite a wee, while this is a big topic to cover and we are also like I feel like this is like the most relevant topic that we could do, so we're gonna have a lot to say yeah, um but yeah, thanks for listening guys as always.
Speaker 2:Um, I run a shop which I haven't mentioned at the start of this, one called the sanctuary sun, where everything we sell is on our own personal toy box. Um, use code behind the paddle for a 10 discount off at sanctuaryofsincom. Yeah there's a lovely market coming soon in good few months yeah got to save those pennies you gotta that is the uncensored market and it's based in Glasgow. We're on insta if you want to check us out yeah, we have.
Speaker 1:She's doing her nails on the couch and it's loud and I don't want it to be in the mic. Sorry, I keep forgetting. Would that be like stimming? Yeah? Relevant yeah, but um, yeah, we have instagram, youtube, twitter, fat life, fat life, kinky facebook. Yeah, what else is there?
Speaker 2:pretty much anywhere. You look we're there, spotify, apple, yeah behind the paddle.
Speaker 1:Dot co dot, uk. Yeah, wonderful, so yeah, this has been paulson and Aimlewson. Yeah, and we shall see you next time for part two. Thanks, bye.
