SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Hi, and welcome back to Behind the Paddle. This is episode eight, part two. We are connecting episode seven and episode eight because there was just way too much to talk about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 0:16

We just would not stop talking.

SPEAKER_00: 0:18

The Neurospicy also just got the better of us as well. Mainly me, I feel. Um, but yeah, we are gonna carry on. So this is Neurospicy and Kink part two.

SPEAKER_01: 0:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 0:30

Uh I am Emily Sin. Yeah, and I am Paulson Victoria.

unknown: 0:33

Cool.

SPEAKER_01: 0:34

So where we left off, we were kind of discussing the kind of the third um kind of interlinking group, which is queer people um within both the neurospics people and the kink people and how the kind of three kind of inter inter intertwine? Yeah, yeah, that's the word. Um so just going off our kind of first study, um, there's like well-documented relationships between neurodivergence and queerness, as well as queerness with kink and BDSM. Um so I thought it was quite important to chat about when we're kind of discussing um it's almost like a chicken and an egg situation. Wait, what came first? Was it the queerness within um kink that brought along the neuro spicy? Or is it the neurospicy that brings along the queerness like into the kink space? Like what one is interconnected, or are they all just kind of one three pieces at the same puzzle?

SPEAKER_00: 1:44

For me, it's we are who we are, yeah, yeah. So the whatever we bring to the table, yeah. Rather than what came first. Because there is such a variety of us.

SPEAKER_02: 1:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:57

It makes sense just being an alternate alternative space that there is going to be like alternative subcultures within that. Um, but it's just that there there's just a bigger prevalence of these subcultures than there are in society, so it's interesting that we've all kind of came together and kind of exist together in a space. Yeah. Um and just looking at the kind of the sorry to say little research that's been done into this topic, but it is something and it is interesting. And hopefully the more people talk about it and discuss it, the more research will be done in the future. Um, if it becomes something that people are interested in and want to know more about, um, which I definitely do. I found this very interesting.

SPEAKER_00: 2:40

Yeah, like with what we said in part one, with this is our bodies, this is our mind, our sexuality, everything. Why wouldn't you want to learn more? Totally. That that just makes more sense to me. So it's why, of course, like we could go see a therapist or somebody of that manner or talk to friends, is to figure out and find out about ourselves and possibly learn something and have conversations like this where it's like, oh, you realise something, or it changes your views totally in some way.

SPEAKER_01: 3:17

Yeah, like I find like for myself, when I come across a new thing, like I want to know everything about it, I want to know like the why behind the what, and like looking at these studies and the kind of psychology behind not only kink but neurodivergence and a queerness in a sense and like how they all kind of work together is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00: 3:37

So fair, yeah. I mean uh kink has always been my special subject.

SPEAKER_01: 3:42

Yeah, same thing. It's still going, so it's great that we now have like an hour a week's outlet to just go blah about it. It's great. I've been thoroughly enjoying this. It's good. I just get to go and deep dives, which I do anyway, but now it has a purpose and I don't feel guilty about it.

SPEAKER_00: 4:00

No, it's been great because when we we talked about doing this, you were like, I can deep dive, I can look at all this, and my brain was a bit overloaded, but it's worked out, it's good, and like it's all very, very interesting when you do look deep down into all of this and you find out there needs to be more research, mainly, because that's that's just the main thing on everything we've we're gonna discuss and we have discussed before, same with like periods.

SPEAKER_01: 4:30

Yeah, anything that I I don't even want to call periods like alternative, but like anything that's just not like cis white males is just overlooked time and time again.

SPEAKER_00: 4:39

If it's taboo, dirty, if it doesn't have a good outlook from other people, or if it doesn't affect that group, yeah, like it's just not deemed as important, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 4:49

It's or as important or relevant, even though it is to like a lot of people and needs to be explored more. Um, but there has been a little exploration and we'll go into that in a wee second. Um, so there's been a kind of sample of the general Belgian population that I found really interesting because what it revealed was that 47% of the respondents had performed at least one BDSM related activity. Don't know about you, I have seen like a lot about Belgium and the kink scene, like they they're they go hard. It makes total sense to me that their culture like must be more accepting and it's more like prevalent there because I I I don't have any studies for here, I maybe should have checked that to just draw a comparison. But 47% feels like a lot. I don't know about you. Yeah, yeah, I feel like I feel like it will not be as high in the UK.

SPEAKER_00: 5:49

Oh no, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01: 5:50

Like like in Belgium, you can walk out in full latex, yeah, and like yeah, like I sent you a video for TikTok yesterday that was like people um coming off a train in Belgium, and I don't know where they were off to, like they might have been going to a kink event, but like it was drip and it was leather and latex and it's it's crazy how different the UK sees different parts of the UK as well, sees kink. Yeah. We're so reserved here. Oh, don't like we're so depressed, to be honest, I would say. We're still back in the stone age, and not just in kink, but just sex in general. Oh yeah. And like queerness and just like it's for some things it's getting better, but it feels like a lot of other things it's getting worse. Like, yeah, it's becoming like more underground, or at least it feels that way.

SPEAKER_00: 6:44

But especially with just sex work, trying to do the Nordic model. Yeah, definitely they want to put that underground, which is so so sad. Which again is gonna suck with me trying to get a dungeon, an actual official dungeon. I mean, we we could go on and on about how in the UK you should help sex workers and there should be facilities for them just like there are in other countries.

SPEAKER_01: 7:11

Yeah, even if you hold certain views and like risk um like risk management trumps prohibition for me. Just wait every hand. Like if you if you're bothered about the people, help them. Like I don't understand this, like them. Like the prohibition in America led to so much stuff, like there was just like this full underground like black market going on, like why do we want to do that here? Like it doesn't it never makes sense to me. It just makes things more risky and more dangerous and therefore worse for the people that these laws are getting put in place to protect, like it just doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_00: 7:48

Yeah, it's the same with how the government in the UK see trans people, sadly. Yeah, and uh I'm I'm hoping it'll get better. Yeah, really hoping.

SPEAKER_01: 7:58

It is currently getting worse. Um I don't know if I spoke about this on the podcast already, but I'm gonna say it again anyway. Like I was at a um uh drag night, shout out to Paisley that runs monthly. I'm actually going there on Wednesday and buzzing. Nice um so the first one that I went along to, they were doing like a queer quiz, and one of the questions was in a 2022 study of the population, how many people believed that trans women were women, like seen them as women, yeah, and it was only 39% or 38%. And the same study was done in 2018, and it was like 64% or 69%, so it's actually ha like not quite halved in four years. Oh wow, like because the media has been pushing and pushing and pushing this anti-trans like rhetoric, it's actually now shown up in statistics. And there was a joke made at the night that was saying they haven't done a study since, like, I think it depressed them too much. Yeah. Was the joke. Like, they've just they've just gave up at that point. Uh it would not surprise me if it was worse now.

SPEAKER_00: 9:13

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me either there there's I can't speak because I'm not trans or anything like that. But I I know that there are people online who say that like they're influencers and things, and they say they're trans, but then they bring a bad um representation of trans and what the whole community's about. I'm thinking about one person in particular. Um you couldn't name and shame?

SPEAKER_01: 9:47

No. I don't know what you're talking about to be fair, so maybe not, maybe not.

SPEAKER_00: 9:54

I mean I mean that their online armies are not the greatest.

SPEAKER_01: 9:57

Ah, cool.

SPEAKER_00: 9:58

Um but yeah, well, maybe skip around that. Um, but I I can understand if people have seen that and their representation of what a quote unquote trans person is like.

SPEAKER_01: 10:16

Of course, like the media is pushing the negative like um examples of people in order to um further like sensationalise and like polarise people against it, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 10:29

It's the this particular person, I might as well just say alpha bar, if you've heard of them.

SPEAKER_01: 10:36

I haven't actually, which is probably bad.

SPEAKER_00: 10:40

They they have like a big reputation for saying like they're trans but also doing quite bad things. And I believe one at one point they had like a go find me up was for surgery instead. They bought multiple fashion items.

SPEAKER_01: 10:56

I've seen this, I'm just bad at names.

SPEAKER_00: 10:58

Um they they come up quite a lot weirdly on my for you page, yeah. Um, just drama and things. Yeah. If you're looking at something like that.

SPEAKER_01: 11:05

They push the controversy, that's yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 11:08

I I can understand why people have a negative.

SPEAKER_01: 11:13

If that's looking at the experience, I think it's like it's based on ignorance, that's my take on it.

SPEAKER_00: 11:19

But I feel like the people who are watching that aren't necessarily queer, totally aren't necessarily supporting it's more ridicule than anything else.

SPEAKER_01: 11:33

Other than like TERFs and stuff though, like there's still like anti-trans movements within the queer community, which yeah, that's interesting. What's this is it like trans some trans excluding radical feminists? Yeah. Oh wow. So that's I need to learn more about this. Yeah, there's a whole it's like um like men come in their eyes, this is their words, like men coming into women's spaces and it like being anti-feminist to them. It's not fair. No. It kinda goes against the whole fucking point in feminism, which is not just about females.

SPEAKER_00: 12:14

It's the same with sex work when there's quote unquote feminists who are like, oh, we don't want this, and it's like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_01: 12:23

Yeah, as we were saying before, like it doesn't actually come down to it being a feminist issue, it comes down to that individual in their personal opinion that being labelled as a feminist issue.

SPEAKER_00: 12:32

Abortion of things like that, it's their own vendetta, and it boils my blood that people think that is okay and it's fair, and just because a group of people who have never done a certain thing, yeah, like with abortion, show me somebody who has actually adopted a child and called a child.

SPEAKER_01: 12:53

Exactly. Not that's like one of my favourite protests I've ever seen, like an anti-protest against abortion protesters is like people going up and being like, Would you adopt this child?

SPEAKER_00: 13:02

Yeah, like like in like my future, I want to foster and adopt and things like that. Uh that's gonna be difficult being a sex worker, I know, but you know, a few years. Times might be a change in, we'll see. Exactly. We'll see. But yeah, that is a good point. Where it's like, have you got any children of your own with that you have adopted? Which I would see them in general as my own. Because there are people out there who adopt and they go, Oh, they're not mine, but I have them. Yeah, and it's like, how can like they're not a pet? Like my babies are my babies anyway. Like I have five dogs, I know, but like they're my babies, and I call them them my babies and everything like that. So, like to have a human in your family and not call them your family, your child, like I I it's no, no.

SPEAKER_01: 14:01

I wonder if there are any like feminist groups that are anti-abortion. It's not something I've personally come across, but I'd be interested. Like, if it would I would see, I I would assume honestly. It just feels counterintuitive, but so does like the TERF thing as well. Like I seen a video the other day, um and it was Can you explain what TERF means? Yeah, so it's um radical feminists that are anti-trans. Um so they believe in rights for females but not for trans females. Like they don't want them to be involved with them, basically, which is what it was. I just like um it f I I'm a firm believer in the like nobody's got rights if like one person doesn't, like everybody needs to have the same that's like is suitable for them. Do you know what I mean? Otherwise, like what's the point? Like what's the point in fighting for your own rights and not everyone else's that needs them? Yeah. Like we're all in this together and like fights don't go well unless there's like enough people back in them.

SPEAKER_00: 15:10

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 15:11

Like, why split? You know, like what what's the point in in fighting? Like, I don't get it.

SPEAKER_00: 15:16

Like it goes nowhere. Yeah, it really doesn't.

SPEAKER_01: 15:19

There's wars currently on right now, and like what's there's enough shit in the world out with her community without like involving more. Like I don't even feel like they're in this community, like they've like excluded themselves from it by excluding trans people, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00: 15:35

Like this is like the many, many, many years of war fighting we don't learn. Yeah, we really don't. We just get more hated. People are fickle, and it shows that's a lovely word, fickle.

SPEAKER_01: 15:52

I love it, it's great. I've been saying it so much, it's like my new favourite word at the moment. I will try and not say it again. Um cool, so we got halfway through that statistic. So 47% of respondents had um performed at least one BDSM-related activity, and 22% reported having BDSM-related fantasies. I feel like that's a wee bit closer to like where I would put us, like in the UK, like 22%.

SPEAKER_00: 16:21

Oh yeah, yeah. Um because it again, it's still taboo in people's eyes, it's still dirty, it's still not normalized.

SPEAKER_01: 16:29

Like this feels like it comes down to what people think is kink and what they don't, you know, like some people maybe do like handcuffs and no see that as kink. Or like um maybe like scratching their partner, say, and that's like and they don't see that as kinky whereas someone else would.

SPEAKER_00: 16:45

And they're like, Oh, you like strap on, oh that's not really that kinky. Yeah, because it's it's getting more mainstream, totally, and oh it's it's when I give advice to some of my clients, because I'm I'm also like a therapist to people, that they often ask me what do I do in a relationship? Yeah, and I'm like, you tell them, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:11

You sit them down, you have a big open conversation, like no judgment.

SPEAKER_00: 17:15

Like there is gonna be judgment.

SPEAKER_01: 17:17

I feel like this should be like part of like the marriage contract, like that should just be like standard practice in every relationship.

SPEAKER_00: 17:24

I'll lose out on clients, please don't.

unknown: 17:28

Sorry.

SPEAKER_01: 17:30

Listen, that's not gonna happen. It's fine.

SPEAKER_00: 17:32

If people talk, it might be a bit better, but at the end of the day, like I feel like you need to have somebody who fills those holes in you, yay. Whether it like that could also open up a discussion to being poly as well, um, and having multiple partners depending on how comfortable you both are with each other and exploring and things like that.

SPEAKER_01: 18:02

Yeah. Which for me, like, and wh while we're chatting about like this, like trans and poly and everything cut are coming under the queer umbrella when we're chatting about like the kind of studies and stuff that we're doing. That's included like everybody under the umbrella, the umbrella of queer.

SPEAKER_00: 18:19

I call it just freedom because you just be yourself, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01: 18:25

Um, so through this study, um the higher rates in BDSM activities tended to be higher for both young and non-heterosexual adults. So that's shown again there's like a prevalence of um like kinkiness in BDSM in like queer young adults, um at least in Belgium.

SPEAKER_00: 18:50

I I mean I was about to say we get them while they're young, but like but like it's the generations, yeah, it really is as it's becoming more mainstream.

SPEAKER_01: 19:02

There is like a lot more of a younger crowd kind of coming into something.

SPEAKER_00: 19:05

Absolutely. I I get clients who are like 18.

SPEAKER_01: 19:07

Yeah, you know, like which still boggles my mind. Like, what what are they doing for a job?

SPEAKER_00: 19:12

Like that's don't you see me ever so often?

SPEAKER_01: 19:16

Yeah, but still that's decent.

SPEAKER_00: 19:20

It's nice, it's refreshing, it's wonderful that you have people of that generation and who are that young that are finding themselves and finding out maybe they want a partner, maybe they don't want a partner. And oh, it's beautiful, it's so nice. Oh, it's one thing which well, there's multiple things I love about my job. Yeah, but seeing the joy in somebody's eyes when they figure something out, when they enjoy something, and they know sort of where their life is gonna go in terms of kink, love life, or just being at fucking ease, basically. Yeah, like imagine how much stress people are under when they're like 18.

SPEAKER_01: 20:04

Yeah, I couldn't imagine even like going to like a kink event at 18. Like I know loads of people do, and I like I'm gutted I didn't start when I was younger, but I just like I didn't have the confidence or like I wasn't so sure of myself then as I'm now. Um, and like a couple of year events, there's me guy who was 18, and it was so nice, it was so wholesome seeing him. Yeah, I've seen him about a few times, he's such a nice you guys. I'll be here's this and like knows we're talking about him, but anyway, like I don't know, it was so refreshing meeting someone so young who was just like so comfortable in themselves, like he was still exploring it, it hadn't all worked out or anything like that, but like even taking that plunge, you know, to like start to try and kind of get an idea where it was at, and like part of that process being coming into the community instead of feeling like you have to have that all sorted out to actually like enter into society, like it was quite nice. Like it's lovely, yeah. Oh, so nice. Um cool. So this next part is quite long-winded, but bear with us um because I I think it's funny. Um so Flegger and Cuba investigated in 2016 the associations between various sexual interests, sexual behaviours, and toxoplasmosis, which um is a disease that people can get from cats. They reckon about a third of the population has it. I don't believe there's like a lot of symptoms and stuff attached to it. I know it can be something that can be quite bad if you're pregnant, which is why Yeah, I got told like don't pick up cat shit, don't go near it, and I'm like that's fine, I got a dog.

SPEAKER_00: 21:41

Yeah, I had a dog at the time as well.

SPEAKER_01: 21:44

So um, but it's commonly understood to alter the behaviour of its host sexual arousal pathways and defence behaviour um as part of increasing the parasite's own fitness. So it's a brain parasite, actually. Sorry, I forgot about that part I'm gonna add yeah, it's a brain parasite that changes your behaviour.

SPEAKER_00: 22:07

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:09

Oh no, keep your fucking cats away.

SPEAKER_01: 22:12

They reckon like everybody's got it, pretty much anyway. Like a third of people's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02: 22:17

Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:18

Um but um people with this indicated greater sexual attraction slash arousal to bondage, sex, and feelings of fear, danger, pain, powerlessness, or humiliation, generally both their own and partners, the non-infected participants.

SPEAKER_00: 22:35

When you said brain parasite, I instantly went, oh boulders gate.

SPEAKER_01: 22:42

That would have made Baldur's Gate a lot different.

SPEAKER_00: 22:49

I think more people might have played it. But if you felt it was a lot of no, that's fine.

SPEAKER_01: 22:58

Um so basically the reason why I'm talking about this is because LGBTQ plus pet owners are more likely than heterosexual pet owners to have cats. And it's quite a stretch. It is quite a stretch, but I thought it would be funny if cats were the reason why everyone was kinky.

SPEAKER_00: 23:21

I mean, I th I I mean I've got five dogs. What does that make me just not as kinky?

SPEAKER_01: 23:27

Yeah, basically, not as like queer.

SPEAKER_00: 23:31

Oh and you get some cats in here. You come in next time, there's like ten fucking rescues. Tussie, Tussie, Tussie, you count as a cat.

SPEAKER_01: 23:43

Yeah, she is basically a cat to be fair.

SPEAKER_00: 23:46

Cool.

SPEAKER_01: 23:46

So um while both autistic people assigned female and those assigned male at birth exhibit higher rates of non-cisgender, um, so there's just like a prevalence of uh neurospicy people being uh like non-binary and like all the other kind of alternative genders other than like the like cisgender and non-heterosexual, so queer as well. Basically, what they're saying is that um as people are grown up, there's like heteronormative scripts that people are taught and like ways of being and ways people are socialized to be within society that are attached to their gender or their gender that they're assigned at birth anyway. Um and autistic people are basically more likely to like reject that or not pick up on it as a social cue that are like aren't socialized into like the kind of heteronormative way of being, just like everything else that's like to do with socialization tends to just not be as prevalent within the autistic community um and just neurodivergent community in general. So there is a theory that um because of that, people also uh neurodivergent people also aren't socialised to follow what researchers call the traditional sexual script, which uh is embedded with sexist, homophobic, and transphobic assumptions, the traditional script being that men pursue sex with women, will women gatekeep the advances of men, and that there's also like an association with violence of men against women within that as well. So that's like your kind of typical like heteronormative experience of like sex and relationships, is like the men try and get the women, the women are like, oh no, too shy, and um are also more likely to have violence against them. And because neurodivergent people aren't like don't pack up on that socialization the same, aren't subject to following that script in the same way that holistic people are and therefore are more likely to be kinky, queer, like non-gender um confining.

SPEAKER_00: 26:12

I'm very confused.

SPEAKER_01: 26:14

Basically, the standard rule book that everyone gets brought up with doesn't apply to neuro spicy people the same, either because we kinda read the book or we read it and we don't understand it.

SPEAKER_00: 26:27

Um probably that one.

SPEAKER_01: 26:29

Yeah, I think that applies to most of us. So, like, we're not getting like shoehorned into this box of like straight like vanilla, like the gender that we're assigned at birth, the opposite sex attraction.

SPEAKER_00: 26:42

Yeah, fuck it, make our own rules. That's like cool, right? That's how I see that.

SPEAKER_01: 26:47

And that kind of leads us into this kind of like kinky queer space.

SPEAKER_00: 26:52

I imagine if everybody thought about that.

SPEAKER_01: 26:53

That's the alternative than like this rule book that the major or no the majority, but the holistic people just know about that we don't, as we fucking everyone, basically. And it's quite an interesting concept that that is what leads us down this path because like we don't um like us we don't ascribe to, we don't like understand or like take on board what everyone else is doing, it doesn't fit us, so we find our NY and it's this freedom again like us finding our own place and making it ours, and it being all the things that we want it to be, which is just different than what we're brought up and told we should be doing like it's like punk as fuck, it's great.

SPEAKER_00: 27:39

Um I guess I could relate that actually to um when I told my dad that I wanted to try poly and he freaked off fucking poly as well.

SPEAKER_01: 27:48

So I keep forgetting about it. I'm not poly, so I just don't think about it, and that's bad. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00: 27:54

No, it was the one thing which like I actually told my well, my parents know everything, a lot of uh my family does, but like it was one of the things which I really stuck with me because it he's very old-fashioned, yeah. Um, and so he just did not understand at all the poly situations and why, and it's not in the rule book, yeah, yeah. And he was just like, What's wrong with like marriage and uh the traditional sexual script? Yeah, yeah. And I was just like, Well, that's cool. One, it's not if I want to get married or anything like that. Yeah, and I don't know where life is gonna lead me or anything like that. So that's what I can compare that to, with somebody actually of my dad's generation, where he's actually maybe maybe just turned 40, I think. He's not actually that old uh compared to how old usually they are when they become a dad. Because uh my dad and my mum got told that they were actually quite young, yeah, because my mum gave birth when she was like 21 or something like that, and my dad was 18, 19, so we very 42, something like that, yeah. My mum's a wee bit older, but he was always told that he he's like a young dad and things like that. Um but that's crazy that he's in his early 40s, and even he was like, Oh what?

SPEAKER_01: 29:33

Yeah, I feel like Polly's new, like even for like me, like that wasn't something that ever really got spoke about, like at school or like your school pure one like stonewall school of the year and all that, and we got um Serene McEllen came and spoke to us, which was sick, it was awesome. But Polly was just never even mentioned, like it was a total foreign concept to me up until a couple years ago, which is why it's still something I've Got to like actively think about, even though I know loads of people that are poly, it's still new to me.

SPEAKER_00: 30:05

Oh yeah, yeah. Um I I think I only got introduced to it a few years ago as well.

SPEAKER_01: 30:11

Um it's on Gossip Girl now, which is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00: 30:16

The new one's got like a thruple on it, it's slightly different because I know that that's not everybody's goal, but like I I mean anytime kink or anything under the umbrella is mentioned in TV or whatnot, I'm like yay, yay. We're getting there.

SPEAKER_01: 30:36

Yeah, what was it recently? It's still very sensationalised though.

SPEAKER_00: 30:40

It's like if anybody hasn't watched Bluey, please go watch it.

SPEAKER_01: 30:44

I still need to go watch Bluey and catch up.

SPEAKER_00: 30:48

Blueie is so good, it's it's one of my favourites.

SPEAKER_01: 30:51

It doesn't help that the first one I watched made me cry. I put it on to make you cry though. Like it's good that it was a good introduction, but I'm a bit like shell-shot, like, don't have a ready go back.

SPEAKER_00: 31:04

We put on the onesies episode. I I wanted to hit hard with it, with like how good of a representation of like trauma and just like real life issues and it should be.

SPEAKER_01: 31:18

Yeah, like actual conversations, yeah, yeah and actual things that happen happens in life.

SPEAKER_00: 31:24

Like the onesies one was about miscarriages and not being able to have kids. And oh titamai. So good, so beautifully done. And it's things like Bluey where it is making it very relevant and putting it out there, there but there was a lot of hate with Bluey. It's like when Bluey first came out, because Bluey is blue, they were like, Oh, they're a boy.

SPEAKER_01: 31:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 31:59

It's like now mate, Bluey and Bingo are two girls. And everyone was like, What's it's one of the things people can't say about yeah, a cartoon character.

SPEAKER_01: 32:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 32:14

It it's yeah. Programmes like Bluey, they're trying to make it better for people and to understand, yeah, and to put it gently to them. Ugh, it's so nice. It's so good.

SPEAKER_01: 32:30

It's so it's so nice for kids. Like, I feel like when we were younger, a lot of kids' TV. It's not that it didn't have messages in it, it most definitely did.

SPEAKER_00: 32:37

I feel like usually had adult messages.

SPEAKER_01: 32:39

Yeah, like I feel like blue stuff puts it in a way that like kids can understand as well. Like, it's not just like, oh, this is like the fun, bright colours for the kids, and then like the kind of euphemistic jokes for the adults that the kids won't get. Like, it's actually something that like you can actually have conversations and stuff about.

SPEAKER_00: 32:57

Like, I have to watch what my kid watches because there was a Russian kids programme. I think I heard about this. And I I did not like it very much, and and she knows she can't watch it now. Yeah. Um, and it was Masha and the Bear. Um I think I seen a clip of this. I I j I I just didn't like it. It just did not align with how I think kids should be taught how to act. It's the same with Peppa Pig. Yeah. I do not like it. Yeah. Um thankfully my Wii One is not the type to like know she can get her own way and everything like that, but you have to watch everything these days to figure out if it is a good representation of kids in general, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:48

And also like your values and stuff like that, because there is such a varying degree from people.

SPEAKER_00: 33:55

It's crazy.

SPEAKER_01: 33:56

It makes sense that kids' shows would be the same, do you know what I mean? Which is why I like Bluey, because it's just safe. Yeah. Speaking of kids, so it's talking about um another study is talking about like uh neurodivergent people being freer from gender norms than holistic people, which we've kind of touched on a little bit. Um, so they reviewed 15 theories explaining repeated findings of high rates of transgender identity among autistic people. Reviewers found the most evidence for explanations based on resistance to social norms and less pronounced sex differences between autistic people, which is the bit that I found really, really interesting. So um there was a study done on children in the general population um where it was shown that uh gender conformity is rewarded from a really young age, so people stick into the kind of gender norms of their gender and that being rewarded.

SPEAKER_00: 34:55

Um Does that mean like boys have blue, girls have pink, or have Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 35:00

Like girls don't climb trees, you know, all the the usual gender stereotypes basically.

SPEAKER_00: 35:05

And then she goes, Can I keep it as a pet? And I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. I don't want a worm.

SPEAKER_01: 35:10

Just in general, I don't want to just like a wood loose kids, I loved them, they were great. I had pet once.

SPEAKER_00: 35:15

Uh like I mean, I tried to catch a bee. Yeah. That did not end well. Was that the the one that you put in the resin? No, that's what you meant like you killed. This was when I was like way young and I was like, I wanna catch a bee. It's really good. But I think one of the most like exciting things from my childhood was going to like a pet and zoo or some shit. Yeah. And like the insects. Yeah, I love dumbness that a hitting uh cockroach. Yeah, so cool. And like with centipedes, millipedes, and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 35:46

I think that's what started me done the woodloof journey was like seeing all the like insects and stuff and being like, There's insects here.

SPEAKER_00: 35:53

Like at some point I do want a tarantula, yeah. Really cool.

SPEAKER_01: 35:56

I've lived with terrified spiders like tarantulas.

SPEAKER_00: 35:59

So that's about I think it's because they're big, so you maybe lose them. I like it because I watched Bride a Chucky and she has a tarantula called Charlotte. Yeah. Oh, adorable, it's always stuck with me. But I I grew up with snakes.

SPEAKER_01: 36:12

Yeah, uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00: 36:14

Uh so I I wasn't like with that norm. Like if my if I if there was a confrontation with like another kid, my dad would be like, Here, here's a mop. Yeah, beat the kid up. Yeah. So like it wasn't for me, it wasn't really the stereotypical. My mum was like you gotta be a girly girl, sort of.

SPEAKER_01: 36:37

That was the same where it was like pink bedroom when I wanted blue, and like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 36:44

Yeah, my mum was like, Why are you wearing camo? Yeah, and I was like, but I really like these camo big baggy like trousers, yeah, they were my favourite, so good, and with a tank top. Um, but no, I hate those stereotypes, it's it's so bad. Like, why? Why do you have to do that?

SPEAKER_01: 37:04

Yeah, why are you forcing people into boxes? Like, just let them be down, yeah, exactly. Well, lucky for us, it doesn't work on us. So, um this study was looking at the the actual brain structure of holistic people and um autistic people and found that there's less sex difference and brain structure between um autistic brains than there are holistic brains, meaning that well, not meaning, but my take on that is that because we aren't being socialized and like forced into the kind of traditional gender norms, there's less difference in how our brains look. Because I like personally I think two people brought up the same, no matter what their gender at birth, like they're gonna be the same. Like, I don't there's been loads of studies done, but I'm saying quote unquote because like they've been pushing an agenda to me, like on the difference between male and female brains, and I feel like the fact that there's less difference between autistics, like, prove that point.

SPEAKER_00: 38:21

But that doesn't make any sense with like trans and stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 38:25

So that links in. So like basically if you if you're a product of your environment and you have been brought up and you have been rewarded every time you've done a good gender thing, quote unquote.

SPEAKER_02: 38:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 38:37

And then punished every time you've done a bad gender thing, quote unquote, and that's actually changed the structure of your brain, like you've taken that on board, and that's changed your brain structure growing up, is what the studies suggest, and it does.

SPEAKER_00: 38:51

I I yeah, I have a client who I recently saw, and he was on about this fucked up. I I had a bit of an argument with him, how he was okay hitting a kid that was male.

SPEAKER_01: 39:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 39:08

But he wouldn't hit a girl because they're a girl.

SPEAKER_01: 39:12

Yeah. And that's not allowed.

SPEAKER_00: 39:14

And he was like, oh, well, the mum can deal with the girl. Yeah. And I was like, what the fuck?

unknown: 39:18

Ha!

SPEAKER_00: 39:19

What?

SPEAKER_01: 39:20

Yeah. The mental gymnastics people do to stick to these. And I think this is why, like, I don't even think it's necessarily anything like different physiologically between us. I think it just comes down to like neurospicy people question things and see the holes in things and see the injustice that exists in traditional gender norms and traditional like sexual scripts as they're saying that like these things don't make sense. They're not, sorry, they're not like how we naturally exist, and they're just like a culture, like a societal thing that has adapted and changed and been pushed over time rather than how we actually exist like naturally. Absolutely. And that's why it doesn't sit right with us. And we go, hang on a minute, that's not the case. To the point that like growing up our brains are like look different f from structures that are traditionally associated with gender. Like we don't have that because we've not like taken that information on board. We've like looked at this gender rule book and went, fuck that, and chucked it away, and therefore our brains like have developed without that affecting it, mm-hmm. Meaning that there is a prevalence of like transgender and stuff within our um like community. I would say I don't know I don't even want to get like too scientific into this because I feel like we're kind of pulling away from the study now and putting her in like this is all just like opinion and what my take on this is, but it's blurring that line, which to me is like where transgender comes from. Like if you if that line's blurred, like you can go where you want.

SPEAKER_00: 40:58

Yeah, like exactly like I I just don't you feel comfortable, but this this whole thing about I'll I'll punch a lad, but I won't punch a girl, and it's like how does that make sense in your head? Because to me, like you can be whoever you want, like it doesn't matter, like you're a person at the end of the day, yeah. You you're a human, you know, you you've got a body, you can do whatever you want with that, it's yours, yeah. So like it's it's insane to me that people believe that just because you have a certain anatomy, you get to be treated differently, yeah. It's nonsense, like but then it's like how do you re rewire that person to not think like that?

SPEAKER_01: 41:50

I don't I don't know if that is possible. Information education, I guess.

SPEAKER_00: 41:54

I tried, mate, I tried. Hey, but you're a lassie, so nobody take it for you. Well, yeah, yeah. Like that's what I mean. That when he said that, I felt so much less. Yeah, totally. Because that's how he sees you, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 42:07

That's what that means to me. Like So it's like what you don't think that I'm powerful enough or something like that, like you're fragile, like it goes back to I kinda remember the quote exactly, but when we're speaking about like the power of periods and stuff, and it's that quote of like um things are either deemed oh I'm gonna look up. We'll circle back.

SPEAKER_00: 42:30

And it's like you can't say like you have respect for women when you say something like that because it just makes no sense.

SPEAKER_01: 42:38

Yeah, like that's words and then your actions don't match it.

SPEAKER_00: 42:42

Yeah. Like it's like, oh great, I've I've just gonna fear for the lads around you the boy kids rather than the women, because the women are gonna be in the kitchen or something, obviously. Like thankfully these days that women are actually able to go to a workplace, but even though they are at a workplace, sometimes they are looked down on, which is still something we're trying to fight today because I remember back in the day what was it that there was an excuse of women wear short skirts or just short skirt or just skirts in general to get ahead, and they would dress provocatively to get ahead and to get a higher role in the job. And it's like just just let us dress the way we want to dress.

SPEAKER_01: 43:45

I will never forget a conversation I had with a very much now ex-friend. This was like when I stopped speaking to them because I've seen them for yeah. Um one of my managers at a job I'd had like years ago had made me feel really uncomfortable and had been quite like suggestive when I had been on my own with him. And I turned to this friend who was a male, and I told him about what happened.

SPEAKER_00: 44:11

And he was like, I can already think about so many things going through my head about what this response is gonna be. He was like, that's amazing. And I was like, what?

SPEAKER_01: 44:19

What like what what the fuck? Like, I was just shot, I don't even think I said words, like I just didn't know what to say. And it was like, well, that means you can sleep with them and then you can get a promotion. He's given you an opportunity to progress in your work, was his answer to that.

SPEAKER_00: 44:35

Oh my god, that is just another.

SPEAKER_01: 44:37

This wasn't somebody I'd known for very long, and I had no idea that they held such views, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 44:43

I've had a conversation with a friend that was like I mean, people have their tactics, you go for it, yeah, you do it. But for me, if if you were to say that, I'd be like, what? Like, I want to be chosen because of my skills. Exactly, not because my tits are ass or vagina or whatnot.

SPEAKER_01: 45:04

Yeah, well, you're in a different book, but in what way?

SPEAKER_00: 45:08

Oh yeah, fuck up. I do want to be chosen because of my tits, mass and vagina, thank you, and my feet. That is my line of work, yeah. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 45:22

I couldn't resist the opportunity, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00: 45:26

I was like, why are you on about that? Oh wait, yeah, my body is my merchandise, basically. Oh, I can't find this.

SPEAKER_01: 45:33

Should I give up? Basically, they were just saying that like women need to be seen as weak in order for them to be like that's another like way people can control them because they need to be protected, and on the surface that all sounds nice, but protected. I doesn't say it's actively negative until you like look at it a bit further. Do you know what I mean? Like that could be seen as a positive to some people, and I've heard people talk like that where like that's how they see it, it's like the weaker sex, you know, like oh that makes me cringe every time.

SPEAKER_00: 46:09

Just because we don't start wars with a weaker sex. Right, what are the next points? That is us. Oh, that is us. So because I was about to say we're gonna blabber on a lot.

SPEAKER_01: 46:23

Um I think just kind of rounding up is basically that oh I'm on the wrong notes now. Um basically like there is uh a link between queer, neurospicy, and kink, and it seems like there isn't a really a winner there, like it just seems to be they're all prevalent within each community, and there's a kind of intrinsic link between them all, which um is just alternate to the kind of heteronormative like way of being, and that everybody's gone, nah fuck that, and all joined in together, yeah, and like pretty cool space that I can't help but recommend to anybody.

SPEAKER_00: 47:03

And no, make more events we'll come to them very, very good, very happy. And we've blabbered on for a good half an hour, I think, something like that. I feel like we've done a button. Right, so this has been Behind the Panel podcast episode.

SPEAKER_01: 47:26

Eight, yeah. Two months, six eight years. Two months. As always, thank you everybody for listening and subscribe on whatever platform you're on.

SPEAKER_00: 47:38

Yeah. We have Instagram, YouTube, Apple is that Apple Podcasts. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Twitter, FitLive. What's that like?

SPEAKER_01: 47:51

In the website.

SPEAKER_00: 47:52

In the website, behindhepadle.

unknown: 47:55

Yeah, good job.

SPEAKER_01: 47:56

Um as always, I um also run the Sanctuary of Sin, which is a lovely online shop where everything we sell is in our own toy box. Um if you use Behind the Paddle, you'll get a 10% discount at thesancuryofsin.com.

unknown: 48:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 48:13

Thanks for listening, guys.

SPEAKER_00: 48:14

Yeah, thank you very much. See you later. Bye.