SPEAKER_03 0:57

Hi and welcome to Behind the Paddle. I am Paul Slim Victoria. And I am Emily Sin. Yeah. And today we have a very interesting topic slash advert we're going to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Yeah, so uh today's episode is called Paisley is Drag and we have our other co-host of the Uncensored Market on today, Moth, who's going to be chatting a little bit about um their event and also a little bit about um just the drag scene in and around Paisley.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

So yeah, so I'm Moth. I run Paisley as Drag, I'm the organizer. And I also run my own business, Moth Lame Vents, and I'm the co-host of Uncensored, which you'll have heard plenty about. Yeah, and we've started a drag show in Paisley where there just really wasn't anything before. It's local queens who asked me to well not local queens, local performers. That's something I can talk about later. Uh asked me to organise it, and it's been a blast since. We've done two, we've got the next three booked in, so far so good.

unknown 2:00

Cool.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

Um well actually I have a question which is okay. Um with the drag scene, you said um there wasn't much in Paisley.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Yeah, Paisley, I think if there's anything that's happening in Glasgow, that sort of encompasses Paisley because it's so nearby. So I think there used to be a little show that happened in Paisley and then it just died out. So this is the new new thing basically to try and get Paisley performers performing in their own term. Which is the two main performers we have. They're both local, it's their own scene, it's they're building it from the ground up, really.

SPEAKER_03 2:41

No, it's what that's what you want in anything, really.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Actually making it for them rather than having to travel through to Glasgow and then missing the trains home and just a fa, really.

SPEAKER_03 2:52

Yeah, I feel like I can relate to that with like dungeon hire and things. Yeah, the effort and the motivation and just all the steps you need to go to to actually get there and do all of it. Um, but yeah, we'll go we'll go to the first question. Do you think drag is always a political statement?

SPEAKER_00 3:15

No, I've written down some answers so I don't forget anything. But I am gonna say yes, and that might be controversial, I don't really know. But I think even being queer and being open and being out is always a political statement because it's a bit of a fuck you to someone who doesn't like it. So drag in that sense, because it's so deeply rooted in queerness and queer culture, then it is a political statement, whether you mean it to be or not. Obviously, some people do it in political ways, they reference politics that's going on. We tend to reference politics at Paisley because that's what's going on right now. There's the election bin, either good or bad, depending on what you think of it, but there's always something you can route it to in a political sense. It's how pride started, it was political then, it's political now. It's always it's always just being yourself that sort of ticks someone off. That makes it something to be controversial about.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Yeah, it's pretty sad that like just being yourself makes you a part of the counterculture, but that just like it's like non-stop, even going outside as like a trans person or whatever is so it's like a risk, so therefore being that is a massive something just to be out and about. Like it's a statement in and of itself, even if you don't want it to be, which is kind of like part of yeah, it makes it a little bit scary, but I feel like it'll always be like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:35

Which is kind of sad, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

If it's not the norm, as it were, then it's always gonna be something a bit tricky.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Yeah, totally. Um so the next question is what is your take on like misogyny within the drag community community? Like, should cish trans women do drag place it.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Everyone should try to do drag at least once. Yeah, whether it's for you or not. I've tried to do drag before, it's not for me. Uh, but that comes out more my confidence in that. But I think everyone should be able to do it. It's it started within like theatre years and years ago, and anyone was doing it then, mostly men, but it is just for anyone. It's a self-expression, it's free and it's fun. Either whether you do it on stage or at home or whatever, you everyone's allowed. It's not something that we can gatekeep, because that's that's something else. Trying to gatekeep something so fun.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

Can can I add in questions which are on that? Yeah. Why do you think people want to gatekeep it?

SPEAKER_00 5:36

I think because it is it's queer culture, and so I think there's that safety net in it being a queer thing. It's for the queer people, it's for I'm gonna say us as a queer person. But in keeping it like that, then it's no better than if the straight community were to get keep things. It's something for everyone, and everyone can do it. It's not like you need certain things to be able to do it. It's drag, it's fun, it's it is just anything anyone can do, and at least try.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

Yeah. Yeah, because what I see is is like just freedom.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

That's all it is.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Yeah. I wonder if this comes back to this isn't something I know loads about, but it's something I've heard before. Like, um traditionally, like in the theatre, like women weren't allowed to do women's roles, which is why this came about in the first place. Like only men could be actors and therefore had to be a good thing. Was that like Shakespeare's? So that would have been like what, the 1700s?

SPEAKER_00 6:33

So a little while ago now.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

A little while ago, but like I wonder if some of this is like kind of hangover like a hangover from that time period where it's just kind of stayed traditionally.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

And I would say it's definitely where the misogynist come from. Yeah. Is folk aren't keen to let well it's a difficult situation anyway, is that misogyny is so rife throughout the whole world that if we're doing something where a lot of it's female impersonation, how can you then say, but it's not for women? Yeah, that's crazy. You're impersonating women a lot of the time, a lot of times not. There's so many different variations of it's incredible. So, yeah, it's still rife, there's still a lot of question about cis women doing it, it's there. I don't understand why it has to be so controlled and so tight-knit.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

If you're a good performer, get on stage, go crazy. People will enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Yeah, like there's so much like you're saying, like, there's so many different forms, like it doesn't make sense that people are getting hung up on keeping it traditional just in this one sense.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Yeah, just in this very specific niche. Yeah. No, it doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

And like it's evolved so much over time and incorporates so much stuff like in this.

SPEAKER_03 7:41

I I remember when um RuPaul's Drag Race came on.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

Um, and then a few years later, I think maybe there was like uh Dragula.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:52

So good. Yep. Lovely to see like alternative drag as well. Like so good.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

That's what I think Drag Race has done, is it's made that specifically feel like it's a gay man's activity.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

And then they had in the UK seasons, they had a cis woman on, and that was groundbreaking. Yeah, it's like maybe for TV, but in local drag scenes, everyone's doing it.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

It's just people need to understand the local stuff isn't in the mainstream, but it still exists, it's still there.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Like it's it's mad that even like like now drag has grown so much that there's like mainstream and alternative drag. Like, and a lot of what like what you're talking about with drag race and what you're talking about with like a ciswoman being on being groundbreaking, is like that's just within the mainstream as you're saying. Like it's nice that it's grew so much that it's got to that place.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

But it's great that it's expanding, but it's taken so long and it's still so far behind.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

And that's coming with its own problems, where it's kind of like getting gate kept and stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

Have you faced any challenges being a trans what? Ron Self-Hosted? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

We expected to face a lot, because it's me who is trans non-binary, and they're two like regular performers are both trans. And we'd sort of thought, is Paisley ready for three trans people to come in and shake things up a bit? And they were, which was a massive surprise to all of us. We did amazingly the first night, we were a bit cautious, like, are we gonna mention it? Uh and our host just did.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

And then this recent time, one of the main performances was all about being a trans man, and we had the trans flag up. And specifically at each show we do, I put up a trans flag because I want everyone to feel like we see you, we as trans people aren't gonna be like, oh, but we're not here. No, yeah, like this is us. We're running it, we're organizing it. This is for everyone. I mean, if I had folk come up, oh I almost could have cried. We had a a young person come up to us last time and say that it was so nice to see like so many trans people being happy in the same space. Aww. I just it was so heart-wrenching, but it was so nice because that's what I would have wanted when I was a little bit younger. But we're putting it out there, we're being loud about it. Yeah, no one's kicked up a fuss about the trans part. Some people were a bit iffy about the fact there was a drag show at all. Like there's comments on Facebook, but that's Facebook. That's a whole different world in itself.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

People are hiding behind their profiles, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

And then you'd see the picture and be like, oh, there's a wee union jack in it there. I know exactly why you're about to say the things you're about to say. But people enjoyed it anyway. Folk didn't care that we were trans. Yeah. We mention all the things that are going on in the world. We did a quiz about it last month. We've just put a lot of emphasis on it being trans and no one's cared, which has been so nice.

SPEAKER_03 10:55

Oh no, that I I pulled a face on when you said quiz because I remember on my my Facebook that there was um LGBTQ quiz going on at their uh pub slash restaurant, and there was a lot of people who were like, Why do we need this?

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Folk get really upset about that.

SPEAKER_03 11:13

And it was like, Well, that this is the reason why.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Because you're like, What why the fact that people are upset is the reason why? Yeah, like why are people upset? Why are you upset?

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Like, yeah, it's it makes no sense to me, and that's why I've enjoyed doing the drag knight so much. Is somewhere someone's upset about it? Good, be that way.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Nice, nice. Um, I actually found the quiz really informative. Like, we had had actually used one of the statistics for it on the last podcast um because it was really interesting. We had been talking about um it was the survey that had been done on whether or not people thought trans women were women, and the difference between 2018 and 2020 was wild, like it actually went down because the media is just pumping so much hate towards drag uh trans people at the moment that it's actually like affecting people's views to to like that big an extent. Like it was like a 30% difference.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

It's crazy, it's terrifying, but it's again coming back to it being a political statement, yeah. We're all still here, we are all still being ourselves, yeah. And maybe that's difficult for some people. Fine, that's absolutely not our problem.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Um, so I feel like we've kinda covered the big question, but it was just a kind of uh like reality. So, how has the reception been taken, dragged like out of the big city and into like a smaller place?

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Again, similar to being trans run, it's been fine. People have wanted something in Paisley that's queer. Yeah, I do a queer club every month. Uh and while there's not a lot of crossover, it's building up that there is it's a big it's a big town. Yeah, Paisley's huge. There's a lot of queer people there, but they're all so disconnected because nobody's ever just thought, well, let's put something together.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Yeah, like everybody's always going into the bigger cities and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Glasgow is so conveniently there, but if it's on your doorstep, then you're already there. Well, it sold out the first one, then it's the first one sold out, uh, which is better than anyone could have imagined. Yeah, uh, and it was good for the venue, it was good for us. Uh, we had a stellar DJ on, so big shout out to SJ who does our DJing when we're there. Absolutely incredible, they kill it every time. Uh, and just like it's a small venue, it can hold about 90. I I aim for about 75 just in case anything happens.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Uh, but it's a space where people are there to be themselves, they don't have to go too far for it. And it's just fun.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

So people don't mind that it's not in Glasgow because we're making it our own thing.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Which is why we always set boundaries right at the start. Like, we'll not touch you if you won't touch us, because obviously the performers going about. Uh, and this is a space for queer and trans people. And if you have an issue with it, then we've already got your money. So you can leave if you like.

SPEAKER_03 16:11

It's one of those things where it's like you're seeing an artist perform and they look beautiful and they're doing so many fantastic things, and it's mesmerizing, and it's like, why don't you want to go see that?

SPEAKER_00 16:25

I know it's such good fun.

SPEAKER_03 16:26

Yeah, it's such a beautiful performance.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

And something I mentioned earlier, and I'm gonna clarify because I don't want to forget about it, is I'd mentioned drag queens, and that might be the term for some people. Uh our regulars use the term drag artists because it is art that they're doing. Totally, it is an absolute massive art form, and it takes a lot of work, which is why I organise it and I don't go on stage because that it's incredible. Like they're in hours before getting themselves ready, and then they just go on and kill it every single time. And so when they said that they preferred drag artists, great, that's exactly what it is. Yeah, I'm not gonna question that if that's how you are, great. Yeah, because it is such a gorgeous art form of witness.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

It's moving away from like that gendered language and stuff as well.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Like and it's not something I'd ever considered until the first show they mentioned. It's like it makes sense, yeah. And I do still slip up, and every time I'm like, that it is gendered, it brings it back to such a niche of when it was it's a gay man's thing dressing as a woman. Yeah, which it's outdated now, everyone's moved on.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Yeah, drag is just like expressing yourself, yeah, in whatever way that looks, and there's like with Chapel Roan being such a mainstream thing, and so good, and her being gay, great, and then also sort of realizing that she's a drag queen at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Incredible. This is a woman who's in a massive mainstream media at the moment who's openly a drag artist, incredible. I think and it's so exciting to see that it is mainstream in a different way that isn't a hundred million seasons of RuPaul's drag. Yeah, it's a bit different, it's people are having fun, not even doing drag, they're just enjoying it.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Yeah, yeah, it's a bit more real as well.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

It's not like there's not a hundred producers, you don't see all the pretendy drama behind the scenes, it's just people having fun being free and be doing drag.

SPEAKER_03 18:22

Yeah, it's something in the world which like still boggles my mind where it's just like be free, just do whatever you want, and just let other people do whatever they want too.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

It's simple to that's why everyone should try at least once. Totally. Yeah, it might not be for you, but my god, is it fun anyway?

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Yeah, it's something like that's just amazing to go and watch and be a part of when like politics is the way that it is, it can be quite like disheartening and quite like it's quite easy to get disillusioned, I think, with um just how like negative everything can be sometimes. So it's nice to just go and enjoy something that like as well can I say like is a political statement, but is light and fun and yeah, like happy and cheerful, like it doesn't need to be something that's like all doom and gloom all the time. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Like you can just go and be a part of something like and it's it's not like the politics is the main aspect of it.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

No, totally not.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

We mention what's relevant, yeah. We let people know hey, this has been said about trans people. Fuck that right off. Anyway, here's an eight-minute long performance to a Lemmy audio.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Yeah, hilarious. That was epic. Love Lemmy. I was totally surprised.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Our host Oktoberfest did an eight-minute performance as Jaclyn McCaffrey from The Limme Show, in case you might not be aware. Oh no, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

She's English.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

My apologies, uh and it was so funny. It was it's that's what makes people question if it is political and stuff, is because people just go in and they do the most off-the-wall shit, but then it just comes right back around to the fact, yeah. But it was an incredible artist doing that when sometimes people don't want them to. Yeah, but I would pay money to see that again. Yeah, they were so good. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

I wish I'd recorded it, I was kicking off so, but I just wanted to watch it.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Like, don't miss it.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

Yeah, what gave you the idea to start a new drag show?

SPEAKER_00 20:27

So I take absolutely no credit. It was the two resident performers. We've got Octoberfist, who hosts, and sorry, what was that name? Octoberfist.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

Very nice, okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

And Clit Sooney, who is our other regular, who will be missed for the next couple of shows. Uh, they messaged me one day and said, We want to do a drag show, you're an event organiser, let's have a meeting. And we did, and it all sounded great. I couldn't find any issues. I was like, this is something Paisley's missing, it's a gap in the market from a business point of view, there's space for it, it's not an overdone area in Paisley. So it was actually the performers that came to me first and said, We want you to organise it, because it takes a lot of effort off of their side, they're already putting in everything on the night. Yeah, totally. They don't need to also be doing the work the whole month up to it for uh getting publicity out there, speaking to people. They book in the performers, fine. I don't know a lot of people in the scene, if any. So if they know people, bring them in, that's great. I just sort it all out, do the tickets, do the Instagram, do the venue. I'll do all the behind-the-scenes stuff. But they came at me, they had a great idea, and I think if I'd turned it down, I would have been an absolute idiot because it's been so good so far.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

It's really nice that like they have came up with that idea and like um they've seen a need for it and they're like creating their own space.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

And I think it was keeping it all trans.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Because the two of them being trans and then bringing in a trans organizer, yeah. We're all in the same wavelength. Yeah. We all understand the needs and the importance of doing drag and being trans and being a space that's open for people to just be themselves in. I'm more than thrilled to be a part of it. It's so exciting every time.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Um is drag inextricably linked with queerness? Does drag have a place at pride?

SPEAKER_00 22:26

I think drag is such a massive part of queer culture.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

But uh any pride I've been to, there's always been drag performers, whether they're extra performing or just in drag to do a march. Drag's always been part of it, and it's been such a huge part for people understanding themselves, whether it be their actual identity or their sexuality or whatever. Drag sometimes seems to be that link in it. It's how I figured out I was non-binary, was working with drag and seeing it more.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

It is always linked, and it should be at Pride. If that is how you identify and it's how you enjoy yourself, and it's not hurting anybody, why not?

SPEAKER_02 23:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

It's just so beautiful to see people have put in all this effort, and sometimes there's such incredible costumes and makeup and everything, and it's just drag. It doesn't harm anyone. You get all these upset with like reading to kids and stuff. I don't see other folk doing it. If there's a drag queen or a drag king or drag anyone wants to read to kids some fun little stories, cool. If it can be done in a safe way, which it always is, then great. And I think pride is no different. There's gonna be kids there, yeah. There's a lot of queer kids.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Drag isn't gonna harm a child. Drag isn't gonna harm anyone. It might twist an ankle at the worst, but it's it's safe and it's fun, and it's so interlinked with a lot of queer people. Yeah, I think it'd be wrong to try and exclude it from anything.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Yeah, I think it's good for kids to see people just being themselves.

SPEAKER_03 24:01

Like I I was reading the Wii One uh RuPaul's book last night. Yeah. Um, because she she got his birthday gift and it was just about RuPaul's life. But like in kid form.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:13

Um and she loved it. Yeah, she was absolutely fine with it. Um, and I I think it's also just down to how you raise your kids as well, with just saying just accept people the way they are and like do whatever you want.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

And if you're seeing it a pride, there's a lot of people there. It's exposure for a lot of folk, maybe not for the first time, but if you bring in young people, this might be how they're introduced to it. They can see what it is, they can understand that it is an art expression. It's just the same as to go to a museum. You're seeing someone who's put in a lot of time and dedication to just do something that speaks to them.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Yeah, I think this comes back as well to like what we're talking about with Kink at Pride is that it's like it's all about context for kids as well. Like, even if that's something that the parents do have an issue with, like, it's up to them how they describe that. There's loads of people that dress up and wear bright colours and costumes at Pride. Like, why does it why do people need to differentiate between someone doing that and then someone like doing drag? And is there a difference there, really? Do you know what I mean? It just it's like it depends on what the person sees it as.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Yeah, there'll be such an overlap with everything, like with so many different things anyway. Queerness and drag, there's such a massive overlap because that's sort of the cultural roots in it. Yeah, and kink and drag, I'm not an expert on kink by any means, but there will be an overlap there as well. It's doing what's appropriate, like keep some bits hidden, it's a public space.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Yeah, nips and bits.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Nips and bits, that's the rules for incensors. Uh and if someone asks a question, I think as a queer person you get asked a lot of random, dumb questions. You sometimes have to just take the time to answer it. Sometimes they're intrusive, you can say no. But if someone asks you a question about doing drag or being queer or a kink, I think it's almost your duty as someone who's been so open about it to educate and help inform in some way, even if it's not a great deal, you don't have to go into intensive detail, it's your own thing. But if you can at least guide people to get educated on stuff, totally that's such a great place to do it, is it something like Pride? Because there's so many people who it'll be their first time going to a parade.

SPEAKER_03 26:30

Yeah, there's so much variety there as well. Oh, it's gonna be so exciting. Because I haven't taken her to her first one yet or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

Yeah, yeah. So is that for next year, do you think?

SPEAKER_03 26:43

Or possibly, possibly, because last uh that this year I was working, so I wasn't able to do anything.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

It's such an incredible time, your first pride. It's so fun. Like I wasn't 18 until I went to my first pride, and it was in Aberdeen, and I was like, oh, it's not where I would have thought, but obviously, I was from the Shetland, so it made more sense that Aberdeen was there. I just nipped down and went to it.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Was that like your closest one?

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Yeah, at the time that was my closest one, and it was the first ever Grampian Pride, and it was incredible. Even though there was like hiccups, if it was the first massive thing, there's gonna be issues, but it was so much fun, and now we've gone each year to the Glasgow one. Oh wow like post-COVID, obviously. Uh although this year I think it's looking to be pissing down the rain, so I might not be going, but it's so much fun, and everyone has such a blast.

SPEAKER_03 27:31

See, even in the rain, there will still be colour, uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

It'll be everywhere, and there'll be glitter everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

It's all the colour and glitter I love. Like, it's amazing, it's great.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

It's also the amount of people that actively go out of the way to upset the protesters that I really enjoy.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Like, we went to Glasgow Pride last year and got involved in a chant that I can't remember enough to repeat, but I don't know if I would anyway. Uh it was great fun.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

It's incredible, it's watching them be that upset about pride. They're always there. They're there more than I am. Yep, like exactly they're committed to it. They probably know the route before I do. Yeah, I only found out today what the route was, they'll probably already be there. Yep, I'd say it's a little bit of obsession.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

Yeah. In my head, I'm just like, oh, we should charge them next time. Just just being a card reader and be like, to be here, you need to have like they're basically seeing free performances.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

Exactly. I don't agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Yeah, I think going back to what you were saying as well, like I think a lot of like the hatred and stuff that is out there is just ignorance. Like, not always, but I think for the most part, when it's like so much of like the general population, I feel like that is what it comes down to is like ignorance and then like being directed by the media because like they're preying on that ignorance. So I think like doing what you're saying and like educating people, like if people are taking the time to ask the question, like there's still hope for them. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 29:00

It's like they're still willing to learn, yeah. And by no means do you have to answer every question?

SPEAKER_01 29:04

No, totally.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Like, my god, that's sometimes the questions you get about like surgeries and stuff like that's absolutely none of your business. Way too personal, way too personal, unless you're not an object, no, and unless you are my medical provider, you don't need to know that. But if they ask something like, what does that flag mean? And I would be like, Oh, maybe that's the intersects like some, what's that? Great. We've opened a conversation, we're learning. Totally, we're understanding more about something that you're not connected to, and it just opens doors for people to not turn into arseholes, yeah, which I'm all for because holy shit, the world's overrun with them.

SPEAKER_03 29:40

Yeah, I I have examples.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

Just like flick through like a dictionary.

SPEAKER_03 29:48

So I went to we were I was in London for work two years ago, I think it was, and I was with a client. You know this client, and it was night time, and there was this lovely person in front of us, and they had fishnets, heels, closet on, and I don't think bare chest. And the client who I was with Was this at an event, yeah. This was just in the street. Oh, nice, it was um Pride Week in London. Oh no, okay. Yeah, um at London, like a lot happens in London. Um, but this was Pride Week, and my client was like, Wonder what gender they are.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

What an insane question to ask.

SPEAKER_03 30:35

Yeah, and and they were just like, Why do you dress like that? And I'm like, why does it matter?

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Like because they want to be.

SPEAKER_03 30:42

Yeah, that was my reaction. I was like, I don't know, go ask them. Don't ask me. How am I meant to know? Like why?

SPEAKER_00 30:53

It's the stuff people say like in private that I would say as soon as you said go ask them. Oh, he's got no filter. Scared to shit. It's like as soon as you have to face what you're I suppose scared of a little bit. They're not sure about it, and if they've only seen it in like the Daily Mail, they're gonna be frightened because that's all it does. But actually, sort of being faced with it must be so confusing. Yeah, and I kind of enjoy that a little bit that it is baffling to someone who's so small-minded about it. Yeah, like asking questions, getting educated, just do your own research. Oh my god, it takes two seconds to Google something. Yeah, I don't care how folk can be just so in their own space, so unaware. Yeah, tunnel vision, really.

SPEAKER_03 31:36

That's a word, yes. Yeah, I I eventually dropped this client because they were very on a boy or girl, like mainly that question of who um they were just looking at, and it's like that's so unneeded.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

I'm about to shatter this man's world. There's even more than that.

SPEAKER_03 31:55

I tried to explain it, it was very I think at that point lost was but then the person who I was explaining about before with pronouns, yeah. They didn't have questions, they were just very firm on that they don't the pronouns don't exist.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

That's always a funny one.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Yeah, and then try not to use pronouns for a person. Yeah, it's impossible.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Give it give it a bash if you're there against them.

SPEAKER_03 32:24

But he the weird thing was is that he was like, Oh, that's fine if they go as they, them, he, her, she, her, and uh anything like that. But it when it went into the Z and the it's they didn't really respect.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

That was a step too far.

unknown 32:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

I mean, if you're accepting that she, her, and he, him are pronouns, at that point you may just take all of them. They're all being used. Yep, they all make someone feel better about themselves, yep. And accepted than the one else, and it takes so little effort, yeah. And you're allowed to make some mistakes sometimes, you just have to apologise and get. It's right. It's not it's no one's world's gonna end if you get their pronouns wrong. But it's about educating yourself and doing better, and maybe you'll come across some new ones. It's always quite fun finding new pronouns.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Yeah. My thing's always like for how minimum effort it is for you to just put a wee bit of colour how you're speaking to or about someone and how much that affects that other person in comparison. Like it should be nothing, it shouldn't be something that you even like think about and that you just do because like you and I don't know how to word that better.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

But I I get what you mean. It's that it can be so minimal for you to say it and it can really make someone's day. Yeah, like I've changed my pronouns a couple of times, there's no shame in that.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

No, totally.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

But you're finding yourself exactly when I started using they them and hearing it for the first time just regularly, oh my god. I was like, no, it makes sense now, I get it. This does fit me and it works. And maybe in years' time I'll think, actually, no, something else works better. But for right now, people are happy using these ones and they make me feel good. And maybe that's selfish, I would say it isn't. But if people can use it for me and I enjoy it, great.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

I feel like everybody's on their own journey, do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 34:15

And that is going to change over time, like it's just it just finding what fits, and if you can just say them to when someone asks you to use them, then that's that's all it is. Yeah, you don't have to learn any more than that about that person. But if you're saying their correct name and their correct pronouns, that you've been a decent human being.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

Yeah, yeah, you can't do it. It takes some.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Yeah. Like you you can ignore anything else about this person if you must, but if you are being respectful and a decent human being, that is all it is.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Yeah, because like everything else at that point, especially if someone has like blatantly said what they prefer as an insult. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Yeah, it's rude, and it's I don't understand how folk can just carry on like that.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Just continue to insult someone to their face and not like, yeah, don't get out.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

People just like being arseholes, yeah.

unknown 35:13

Cool.

SPEAKER_03 35:13

Um, do you want to ask the last question? Yeah, uh, what has been your favourite moment so far?

SPEAKER_00 35:19

There's been a couple. Getting involved has been an incredible moment so far because it's always exciting to start a new event, uh, and being that place for people. It's a regular event, it's once every month, second Wednesday each month at the Bungalow on Shuttle Street, if you're interested. Uh and it creates that safe space. We've had such an incredible range of people coming. Like the first night we had quite a lot of older people, and I my immediate thought, and very wrong of me, was oh no, they don't know what they're here for, they're not gonna like it. They loved it, and it was that stereotype ingrained in me that I thought they're gonna hate this. But it's being that space for folk to discover drag for the first time and be themselves. It's not like if anyone ends up being an arsenal, they get kicked out. That's as easy as it's gonna be. But people are there, they can be openly trans, they can dress how they want. We had someone in an amazing watermelon dress last time, and I was like, this is the sort of stuff I'm happy to see. People coming being colourful, being free, and then when we get comments like that trans person said to me about being able to be themselves, it just makes you gotta cry. Yeah, that's nice, it's more than just being entertainment, it's actually like a home for people, yeah, and it's welcoming for people. Yeah, so the best part is that we're doing it and people are enjoying it.

SPEAKER_03 36:39

Yeah, I have like a little bit to like sort of connect, but like with you seeing older folk and thinking like kind of the worst with with my job when I see older folk, they usually like they haven't been able to like progress in the world and like be themselves, so I feel like that might be like connected in the way of like wow, stuff's actually out there, and I can actually be myself and um do what I want, and these other people, especially if they young um performers, it's so nice to see, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

And they're it's an excuse to go out, like it's a Wednesday night, they're coming and enjoying themselves just as much as younger people or even older people. We're getting it's it's incredible, just like because I made that assumption, and afterwards, when they'd come out and everyone's given us such great feedback, it's like that's me being an arsehole. That's me made this horrible assumption that older people stereotypically are not gonna be open for the trans side everything, they're not gonna know what drag is, and that's me being an idiot. They had such a great time, they paid just like everyone else, they came in, they enjoyed it, they cheered when they were meant to, they just they were incredible guests, and I was so glad to see so many older people came back for the next one because even against my better assumptions of don't judge people, I judged them and I was wrong, and I was so glad to see that they were not put off by the fact that maybe someone had to stream that it was going to be awful for them because we have so many more folk come back, and the bungalow is mostly older folk, it's not a particularly young people venue, but I guess that does depend on the music that's on and stuff, but it tends to be sort of like tribute acts and stuff, and it's always good fun regardless of what you end up going and seeing, but it's regular customers who are coming back and seeing that it's something else to support, so it's a local venue still being supported, whether it's exactly the kind of thing they want to see or not, they're coming back and they're having fun. Yeah, and I'm I'm glad that that's happening.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

It's nice, I think, when you create a space that's not just for like one crowd. Do you know what I mean? You're creating something that is open to everybody, yeah. Because I feel like that is like like creates like an exchange of ideas and stuff, and it it's not just like you're in an echo chamber, do you know what I mean? I don't mean like any negativity are in hand, but I think it's good for like both sides to kind of intermingle.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

We'd assumed that it was all going to be exclusively like queer people, yeah. But drag is so cool that anyone wants to come and see it. It's so exciting to see, and it's been so many folks' first drag show. I was like, great, this is the place to be. It's fun and the bar's cheap, and that's what counts. The important things are there, you're able to be you regardless of age, gender, sexuality, anything. Yeah, people are coming and enjoying it, and just having fun together, just having fun together, and folk are meeting new people at the same time. Yeah, because it's you're all pretty much sitting on each other's laps by the end of it. So may as well make some new friends while you're there.

SPEAKER_03 39:55

Oh, that's so great.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

It's good to see, and I'm excited for the next one. Yeah, because on my birthday for your birthday, yes. I've got some ideas in the works, but no, it'll be good fun as it is every other time. And I'm so excited because it's if it keeps being as popular as it is, it'll just keep going. And it'll still always be that safe space for people to come to and enjoy themselves.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

You think you're always gonna keep it in Paisley then?

SPEAKER_00 40:26

I wouldn't be able to come up with a better name.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

Of course you need to change the pay.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

Paisley fits far too well. And the idea was to bring it into a somewhere that wasn't the centre of Glasgow. Yeah, totally. So we might change venues, but we're the venue we've got is accessible. Yeah, the staff are always amazing, and you know, it works for what we've got, so we'll probably just stay where we are. Unless they say to fuck off, had enough of you. But until then, we're staying put and we're having fun, and we're already thinking about what we're gonna do for Halloween.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Oh, exciting.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

Because that is the best holiday of the year. I will take no criticism on that.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

In total agreement here. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

So big plans for future stuff, and it's taking on feedback from people. We're really keen to hear what people have to say. Yeah, sometimes it's not something we can fix, but a lot of the time, if it's hey, these tables were too close together, I couldn't sit properly, cool, right. We move tables about. Yeah. We figure it out as we go. We just need people to tell us what's going on, and it works.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

I think that's it, really. Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you very much for coming on.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

It's been good fun. And it's always sort of slightly went off topic, but we'll circle button. I feel like it's all relevant. It's all relevant, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

Yeah, like the audience and like just entertainment and everything.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

Drag can include so much more than the performers, yeah, yeah. It's about who else is involved and enjoying it from a different angle.

SPEAKER_03 42:01

So this has been behind the paddle. Yeah. What else?

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Everything is just total fell in my head. So, as always, um, I am Emily Sin, the owner of the Sanctuary of Sin and co-host of Uncensored Market in Glasgow. Um, if you want to get a 10% discount on our store, use behind the paddle at the checkout at um sanctuofsin.com. Yeah. Do you want to see about the supporting us?

SPEAKER_03 42:33

Oh yeah, uh if you do like these podcasts, you are more than welcome to just give us a tip or subscribe, even though there's nothing on there. No, there's nothing on there.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

It's just to support us, just if you like what we're doing.

SPEAKER_03 42:50

Yeah. Um, and you can do that by just going on behindthepadle.co.uk. Um, we also have a DarkFans where you can kind of figure out from there what exactly we do on there. Um, what else is there? I think that's us. Yeah. And you can find us on FetLife, which is the kinkier version of Facebook, um, Twitter, Instagram, and the majority of podcast websites here. Thanks for listening, guys. See you later.