Speaker 01 0:00

Hi, and welcome to Behind the Paddle Podcast. I am Porsland Victoria. And I am Emily Son. Yeah, and today we are going to talk about my lovely Parliament visit. Yeah. Something very dear to my heart and like has very much changed my outlook on a lot of things. And I definitely it has definitely changed the way that I want to support sex workers. And the fact that voices do need to be heard. Yeah.

Speaker 02 0:29

And voices make the biggest difference. Absolutely. Facts and figures can be ignored, but it's harder to ignore people.

Speaker 01 0:36

So exactly. It's made me be like, I need to actually do some shit. Yeah. You're doing so good.

Speaker 02 0:45

So right. Cool. Do you want to kind of introduce what what you were down for?

Speaker 01 0:50

Yeah, so I was down with English Collectives of Prostitutes. Uh they are an organization who I will quote from here, so I don't get it wrong. The English Collective of Prostitutes, ECP, is a network of sex workers working both on the streets and indoors, campaigning for decriminalisation and safety. They fight against being treated like criminals. They have helped sex workers win against charges of soliciting, brothel keeping, and controlling. The last two most often being used against women working for safety. Yeah. But we'll come back to this in a later episode. But English Collective of Prostitutes are an amazing organization. Absolutely amazing. And they're always there if um if you need help or anything.

Speaker 02 1:58

Yeah, they're a really good support resource. Um so they've put together a report called Proceed Without Caution. And it was the findings of this report that were being taken to Parliament and they had asked you to go along to speak.

Speaker 01 2:12

Yes, yes. Um mainly because there's sadly not that many sex workers, uh prostitutes mainly, who want to speak up because most are afraid. Of course.

Speaker 02 2:26

They're criminalised, so like putting your face to it is a difficult, difficult thing. Exactly. And you should be super fucking proud of yourself that not only have you done that, but you've done that in fucking parliament, which is a whole other ball game. Like, I'm so proud of you, you've done amazing.

Speaker 01 2:44

Yeah, we went to House of Commons to talk about Proceed Without Caution, which is basically where the police are just abusing their own power. It's as simple as that. Yeah. And we the the people who were there, we want to fight for decriminalisation. Yeah. Which again we'll talk about in a future episode because there is so so much to talk about.

Speaker 02 3:08

It's such a big topic, and it's something that we've kind of covered bits and pieces of already. But I think this report shows why it's so important because it's shown the impact that criminalization currently has on people's lives, absolutely, and why this fight is so important.

Speaker 01 3:23

Yeah. Um when I was there, I heard so many stories, and it really, really opened up my mind in how it all works and how basically the government sees us.

Speaker 02 3:39

Yeah.

Speaker 01 3:41

Not good. It's great. It's great.

Speaker 02 3:45

Cool. So to start off with, can you share what inspired you to speak at Parliament about your friend's experiences?

Speaker 01 3:53

So I did a speech, I was up on um the top part speaking.

Speaker 02 4:01

That was my phone.

Speaker 01 4:02

Okay. Speaking to so many people. And there was MPs that could come in and things like that. So everybody could come in basically. So yeah, I was talking about my friend's experience where she was working with other people in the same property for safety reasons. And one day there was a knock at the door, very loud knock. Um, and they basically forced them their way in. They were there with like a battle and ram and stuff, and the police were. The police were, yeah. The police were there, and they just up and arrested her. They were like, You're running a brothel, and she was like, What? Yeah. And yeah, she spent a good few hours in the cells, and then they questioned her, and they asked all these questions about working with other women, because it always comes down to women, yeah. And then it came down to like if her partner was in charge. Yeah. And a man. Yeah, right. And basically, they didn't do their due diligence in actually researching anything, what was happening, or if people were like being trafficked. Like, there was no questions that she was asked where it was like, Are you trafficked? Or like, like, are you being pimped out, or something like that, where you would go, shit, there's a situation on here. It was all like very treating you as a treating them as a criminal.

Speaker 02 5:47

Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 01 5:48

It's like, why why aren't they trying to get the bad guys? Why are they just getting the women who are just there trying to survive? Yeah. And maybe like enjoy their job and are trying to prov like feed their kids and get rent and things like that. And it all comes down to like poverty. Yeah. At the end of the day. Totally. Which is another thing which being your friend has like um well, just having other people in general um has opened my mind up to because I came from a very uh racist family. Yeah. Um, in the ways of like, oh, if you're on benefits, you're lazy, you're this, you're that. Um I met you and you were just like, oh no, it's like this and this and this, and I'm like, I'm like, yeah, fair. That all makes absolute sense.

Speaker 02 6:51

And then a background in social can really open your eyes to like what's actually going on and who's actually to blame which is normally the government and the police. Yeah, it's great.

Speaker 01 7:03

But yeah, with me wanting to go down and share my friend's story, it was the cruelness of the police because they share that the police said things to her, and for example, when they locked her in her cell, she was like, How how am I gonna pay the bills and things if I can't work? Yeah, and the police officer was like, Oh, your pockets aren't gonna be so flush now, are they?

Speaker 02 7:30

Yeah, and it's just like how can you be so um like callous? Like, where where is this like innocent until proven guilty? Where's humanity? Exactly.

Speaker 01 7:41

Like, like what the heck? Yeah, like the way they treated her, it was horrendous. And that's just one person, yeah. And that was um so like in Scotland, so like in the Proceed Without Caution, there's a lot of talk about London, yeah. And what I learnt about London is like it's ten a million times worse. It's insane. Once we get into it um in the next episode about like statistics and stuff, it's shocking, very shocking. I mean, we're we're already here in Scotland trying to fight the Nordic model, yeah. And it's like we don't want it to get any worse because like I'll probably move to England, yeah, if it's better. But not London, no, not London, like I I intest to my look there, yeah.

Speaker 02 8:37

But yeah, that's why I went down because like it's it's very unjust, yeah, just injustice to what's going on, exactly.

Speaker 01 8:46

And I've been doing this next month for eight years, so I feel like I want to help. I want to try and make a change, especially here in Scotland. Yeah. And we there's so many sex workers there in the UK. We all need to talk up.

Speaker 02 9:08

Yeah.

Speaker 01 9:09

Even if you're like um doing phone chat, burlesque, um you're like OnlyFans, yeah. You're like going around to houses and you're like um being nude and things and cleaning. Like we all need to speak up, we're all in the same circle here. Once the government hits one part of us, it's only a matter of It's a domino effect, exactly, because we already have the online safety act, yeah, it's already freaking hit, so we've got a few like we we don't really want to um filter down sex work, yeah, totally, and keep going down the road that we're on, yeah, make it underground as well, yeah.

Speaker 02 9:52

Because the frustrating part of all of this for me is like it always comes back to oh trafficking, oh people being forced and coerced. And it's like where? But the more time the police is spending arresting people who aren't doing anything wrong is taking time and money and resources away from them actually fighting that problem.

Speaker 01 10:13

It's like um my friend, for them to go to her property and there was like 20 police officers, yeah. It's ridiculous. It it was like at least six to ten grand. At least, probably even bloody more.

Speaker 02 10:27

Yeah. It's ridiculous. A million percent more. Or that if it was like batter and rams and the proper like um what are they called? Our brains went blank. Like the officers. Like the riot police. Yeah. That's a lot. That's mere than ten grand.

Speaker 01 10:42

It's crazy.

Speaker 02 10:42

Because all the gear and everything, like it's a lot. It's ridiculous.

Speaker 01 10:46

It needs to stop. So that's why I went down. Yeah. Because we just need to properly stand up where we can and be like, no, no.

Speaker 02 10:57

Yeah. Especially like after that had happened when we were kind of looking into things and trying to help her and stuff, we found what the police guidance was on handling a situation like that. And it was so far away from what actually happened. Like the guidance was that they were supposed to try and investigate, try and speak to them one-on-one rather than creating this big scene. Because if there are victims of traffic in there, it's gonna actually push them further away from being able to get a conviction because they're gonna scare the life out of them. Like they just didn't follow the procedures in place. They got over excited and overextended and created a big mess. What turned out to be nothing.

Speaker 01 11:44

Yeah, it's like I I wouldn't like we when we researched, not a lot in regards to like brothels and stuff goes on in Scotland. So like the police officers must have been like, oh, this is my big break.

Speaker 02 11:56

This is a juicy thing to get her fucking teeth into let's go ham. Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 01 12:03

Yeah, it's like they blot barricaded the roads and things like that, and like she was meant to have a climate.

Speaker 02 12:09

They shot the road in that as well. Yeah, they shot the road. Like it was a full operation.

Speaker 01 12:12

It was a full operation. And like they took her out into the street and like took her to the van and things, hands behind the back.

Speaker 02 12:21

Yeah.

Speaker 01 12:21

So like they paraded her around, basically. Uh like, thank God she was like fully clothed and things. Um, but no, they blocked off the streets, they found her client, yeah, and then proceeded to ask her client multiple questions and things. Yes. And nah, it's not good at all. No. It's really not.

Speaker 02 12:45

Um a client who'd done nothing wrong. Did they not arrest them as well? Yes. They put them in handcuffs at least, which like that's not illegal what he was doing. No, no, no by any means.

Speaker 01 12:55

If the Nordic model comes into play, then yes.

Speaker 02 12:58

It would be, but at the moment in Scotland, that what that is not against any law. Like that was unnecessary.

Speaker 01 13:04

Yeah. So it turns out that like they used that basically as a fair tactic.

Speaker 02 13:08

Yeah.

Speaker 01 13:09

They handcuffed him and threatened him, and they were just like, Were you here for sex and things like that? Yeah. And it's just like, what are you going to achieve by doing that? Yeah. Like, even if he said yes, then what? What difference does it make? Exactly. It's It's because like if he says yes, it's more like, oh, he was here for sex. Like But that's not illegal.

Speaker 02 13:35

So like that's what I mean. Like, I don't understand what the need for that was.

Speaker 01 13:39

Yeah.

Speaker 02 13:40

Like, there wasn't two people in that property at the time. If there was, I could understand. But they would have known that there was just her in that property. Yeah. So finding out that he was there for sex doesn't add to the case of like, oh well, there were two people in the property. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It was just unnecessary UC force, in my opinion. Absolutely.

Speaker 01 14:00

Absolutely. It's ridiculous. It really is. Where it's that they feel so empowered and so invincible. They can do whatever they want. And it's just like, but you're not doing protocol. You're not like actually figuring out.

Speaker 02 14:20

Yeah.

Speaker 01 14:21

Um and actually evaluating the situation of like how to make it better in the sense of caring for the person, whether that be the client and the um the quote unquote like criminal. And it's like it's the same with the whole like prison system and things where it's like, oh, we're gonna do rehabilitation, we're gonna give you support and things. And it's like we're meant to have that with the police as well.

Speaker 02 14:51

Yeah, they're literally supposed to be a community resource that helped to keep people safe and are literally on the wrong side of things when it comes to this work where like people are being hurt and dying, and it's been ignored by the police because of their job. Yeah, but that's a whole other issue. We'll we'll put a wee pin in that just now because I feel like we kids. Yeah, we could absolutely just talk. Um cool. So moving on, how has police involvement in prostitution personally affected their life and work? I feel like we've kind of covered this a little bit, but just kind of aftermath.

Speaker 01 15:25

Basically, my friend she has a um she has kids. So the police, without her knowing, contacted social services. Social services came around the next day, and she was obviously freaking like terrified of things that they were gonna take away her kids just because of her doing her work, yeah. But the kids went around or anything like that. So thankfully, the social services that she had they were fine, they were absolutely fine about it, and they were like, We respect your job, yeah, this is your job, everything like that. Yeah, so thankfully nothing happened with that, yeah, nothing. So um, thank god it didn't. Uh, because I I I could imagine um the fear that she would have with like just getting the wrong social worker on the wrong day.

Speaker 02 16:22

Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 01 16:23

And again, in Proceed Without Caution, we'll come back to where escorts, prostitutes, whatever you want to call us, have um came in contact with social services and it hasn't ended very well at all. And it is it really does bring a tear to your eyes because it's it's not right in any way. No, nobody should have the fear that doing their job means that they're gonna get their kid taken away. No, like their kid if their kid has no involvement in their work, what difference does it make? Exactly, and the kid's being taken care of, there's clothes on the back, there's food in the fridge and things like that. Why are you taking the kid away from a safe loving home?

Speaker 02 17:08

Yeah.

Speaker 01 17:09

Ridiculous.

Speaker 02 17:10

It's just that's not in their procedures either. You know, that's being again somebody in a role who's too big for their boots making a decision based on their values rather than the procedures that are put in place. Exactly. And it happens too often.

Speaker 01 17:25

Yeah, it does, yeah. Absolutely. So, like me personally, like I've thankfully um so when I have came in contact with like the police and social services, so I used to work from my own property a few years ago, and neighbours r saw men coming in through the back gate and stuff, and I I had like a really good um what I thought relationship with her, the neighbor. But she called the police, they came over. Well, I had a client, I know it happens. Uh the client was absolutely fine about it though, it was lovely. Yeah, but the police were like, What are you doing? things, and I was like, Oh, I'm a dominatrix, and they were fine with it. Absolutely fine. So, um, and they said, Oh, because um a child does live at this address, we'll have to contact social services, but you shouldn't need to worry or anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. So, like, I got good officers on a good freaking day, and then social work came over. Um, they were absolutely bloody fine. They were like, as long as um your child isn't there, yeah. Peachy. Yeah, totally absolutely fine. Totally. Um, I've had a few run-ins with the social services, which are no fault of my own. Yeah, um, one of them was a guy who don't say too much because he's a penis, but somebody in the BDSM community was just like, Oh, I don't like you, so I'm gonna call the social services and tell them a lie. And it was very clear that it was a lie. So social services was like, sweet, chill, that's fine. And then, yeah, the other one was I broke up with my partner at the time, and it was a lovely custody battle. So his uh one of his relatives decided to call social services because they quote unquote said they didn't know where the child was in my care. Right. And basically social services was fine, they were just like, right, cool. Clearly, they're just grasping at straws for this custody case and stuff. So I was like, great.

Speaker 02 19:44

Which is never a good lick.

Speaker 01 19:45

No, yeah. So I've been very much because he also tried to use it in the court case of why I'm not a good mum.

Speaker 02 19:53

Yeah.

Speaker 01 19:53

Yeah. So he also tried to use it in the court case about stating that's why I'm not a good mum. Yeah. Because I'm a sex worker. So I have been very scrutinized in some ways. Not necessarily personally with the police. Yeah. But in like previous relationships and things like that.

Speaker 02 20:15

It's good that there's been some good examples, you know, of like things being handled. But I wonder, interestingly, if that situation that you had would have been different if you had said you were an escort rather than said you were a dominatrix. Yeah. And that was what made the difference.

Speaker 01 20:33

Yeah, exactly, which is why like sometimes depending on who I'm talking to, I lead with I'm a dominatrix.

Speaker 02 20:39

Yeah.

Speaker 01 20:40

Because they don't think that I'm a dominatrix who like has sex with people or anything like that.

Speaker 02 20:46

Like a lot of people don't see it as sex work.

Speaker 01 20:48

It's not what springs to mind when you think that I mean I've heard uh some prof quote unquote professionals say that it's not sex work as well. Yeah. And it's like just because you're not having sex with somebody, we can go back to another episode, we can go back to a previous episode that we did.

Speaker 02 21:02

Like the hierarchy, yeah, yeah, totally. It does definitely exist, even within law enforcement. We're assuming, like you could be wrong, they might have handled it just as well, but there is a reason why you led with it.

Speaker 01 21:13

Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 02 21:15

So, yeah.

Speaker 01 21:16

So yeah, I've I've I've had my fair share of people also taking advantage because I did rent a property as well when I was very much in need of having another having a property to live from, and I worked from it as well at the same time, but the landlord he would up the rent every so often. And I was like, mate, it it's a lot of money. Like, I can't be paying this. Did he know what you were doing? Yes.

Speaker 02 21:45

Yeah, that's fine.

Speaker 01 21:46

Yep. So he he fully took advantage of that. Yeah. I'm a landlord myself. Um and I I like I'm fair in that way, just stating, just stating that I'm a landlord myself, and I like we we don't want to abolish property or anything like that. But there needs to be stricter laws when it comes to landlords, I believe.

Speaker 02 22:09

Definitely, in terms of them not taking advantage of people, which you very much are not, because I would have a lot to say otherwise.

Speaker 01 22:16

I mean, I'm undervaluing the property really because of how much um I I charge and things like that, because I understand that in this economy shit's hard these days. Like no, I'm not gonna no. But this comes after like having a conversation with a few people about um and my experiences where some people want to like abolish Airbnbs and like private property, and it's just like I hold that near and dear to my heart. Thank you very much. I'm actually a good person.

Speaker 02 22:45

Yeah, so it just needs to be heavily fucking regulated. Exactly, exactly. Airbnbs feels like a separate issue because they're sitting empty so much of the time that like yeah, anyway, we'll we shall move on. Um I feel like we've kind of covered the the next question, but just if there's anything you want to add, so what are some of the biggest challenges you face as a sex worker in relation to law enforcement?

Speaker 01 23:13

Oh, um, if I get sexually assaulted in any way, if one they would believe me, two, if they would actually care. Yep. Three, if anything would actually get done. And I've I think I believe I've spoken previously where like I have been stealthed and like where people haven't like given me the right money or like they just straight up haven't paid me before. Um, especially my rookie days.

Speaker 02 23:41

Do you want to explain what stealth does just in case people don't know?

Speaker 01 23:44

Stealthing is when a man, usually, somebody with a penis, takes off the condom without you knowing. And then yeah, that's the mainly it. Like they can come inside of you, that's their preference in a way. But like, yeah.

Speaker 02 24:02

Yeah, which is sexual assault. Yeah. Legally sexually assault in Scotland anyway. Yeah. Um yeah.

Speaker 01 24:09

I don't like the fear of me being prosecuted for anything, yeah. Especially because um some women, uh, and I say women, because the majority of people uh sex workers who get prosecuted are mainly women.

Speaker 02 24:25

Well, even the law, you know, even like the brothel keeping law, for instance, that we've kind of been discussing, is gendered, and it's only women that's included in it. So like that's why that's the case, because the law for this stuff is so old that it's gendered.

Speaker 01 24:43

It's crazy.

Speaker 02 24:43

It's for like the 1800s and shit, and they've just never updated it. It's great, it's great.

Speaker 01 24:48

It's wonderful, and like um, yeah, because sometimes um women when they go on tour, they to cut costs, they do it with somebody else. To cut costs and for safety, yeah, they cut like they do it with somebody else, but that's a brothel.

Speaker 02 25:11

So like even if it's not in a private property, it's a brothel.

Speaker 01 25:15

So if you get assaulted and you go to the police and be like, this is what happened, and they're like, Oh, who else was there? And you say another sex worker, you can get fucking done with that.

Speaker 02 25:25

Yeah.

Speaker 01 25:25

So it's like it can be a lose-lose situation.

Speaker 02 25:29

And from the sounds of it, a lot of the time, they will go with that rather than the assault.

Speaker 01 25:33

Exactly. It's easier to prove.

Speaker 02 25:35

Yeah. Which it's ticking boxes at the end of the day, which is a whole other thing.

Speaker 01 25:41

It's ridiculous. Yeah. It really is. So, like, me when I was stealthed, I I did not go to the police or anything like that because I just felt like it wouldn't help, and that I would be shamed rather than helped or anything like that. Even though I had the guy's phone number and I knew what he looked like, and I technically had his DNA, yeah, I don't think I would be taken seriously.

Speaker 02 26:06

Yeah. Like the public's aware that so many people do not feel comfortable reporting things to the police, which is ridiculous. Like they're lit that's their job. That's what they're there to do.

Speaker 01 26:17

They're there to help us and make us safe and everything like that. And instead, I feel like I'm gonna be um victimized in the ways of oh, she deserved it. You've seen what she was wearing, oh this is her job. Like, no, I I don't wanna be faced with that or anything it's scary, it really is scary. Being a woman in general and then but yeah, like it it's one of those things where it's just like this is why we haven't stood up. Yeah. Because we're we're scared to. Even if um it is in the litless of ways of feeling a certain way and uh being outed and doxxed. Yeah. Like, yeah.

Speaker 02 27:11

Yeah, there's too many barriers in place. And I feel like that's yet again another thing that should be more of a focus than trying to get like the Nordic model in. You know, make it safer for the people that are there, look at what is causing the most harm. Exactly. Because it's the same with people that have been trafficked, they don't have confidence in the police. Yeah, and this is where the issue is lying that people do not feel they are a resource they can turn to when illegal activities are happening against their will.

Speaker 01 27:42

Exactly.

Speaker 02 27:43

And that's the fucking issue here.

Speaker 01 27:44

Like Well, it's like I'll give you a wee little example. Um so in Scotland there is a stalker. There was a stalker who harasses sex workers, and he's been constant for what, at least 10 years? Yeah, five, something like that. Yeah. And he will dox. Like he's doxxed me before. Yeah. And I don't give a shit. I really don't. And I've said to him, I don't give a shit. Yeah. Like, I've got nothing to hide. Yeah. Like I've I've faced the police, the social work. Yeah, yeah. Like it's no blackmail if you don't care. Exactly, exactly. It's like at some point I am prepared to come out and be like, this is my real name and things like that. Um, because like I'm in the lifestyle community. Yeah. I I tell people my name and things. Yeah.

Speaker 02 28:36

It's not like some people have this very distinct separation between the two.

Speaker 01 28:40

Yeah. It's like that this person has literal um court cases against him. Yeah. And he carries on. Yeah. And um restraining orders, and nothing, barely anything is getting done about him. Yeah. Like there's so many reasons why this man should literally be put away. Yeah. Or like something should be done. You shouldn't be getting away with doxing people, making people feel afraid, and putting like false reviews on like um sites, like escort sites, profiles and things like that. It's ridiculous.

Speaker 02 29:20

Just generally harassing people.

Speaker 01 29:22

Yep.

Speaker 02 29:22

Yeah.

Speaker 01 29:23

Absolutely. Right. So this is the end of part one. Um, yeah, this is the end of part one. I have been Paul St. Victoria.

Speaker 02 29:33

I have been Emily Sin.

Speaker 01 29:34

Yeah. Tomorrow, uh no, today, we are going to uh a protest in Edinburgh for trying to stop the Nordic model and just getting a lot of attention towards it. Yeah. But yeah, we have to dash.

Speaker 02 29:51

Yeah, because we are busy, busy, busy fighting the good fight. So exactly. Yes, it's very relevant. I'll not go and dress as a bunny, but yeah, it's like

Speaker 01 30:00

There's no bad women, just bad laws.

Speaker 02 30:02

Yep. Very true.

Speaker 01 30:04

So yeah, let's stay in the part one. Um uncensored markets next week. Is this week? Oh my god, it's a Sunday.

Speaker 02 30:12

Um, so if you've not got tickets, get them, come along. You can meet me in person. You unfortunately can't attend, but um she will be there in spirit and I will be there, so but I will be busy so I can say a quick hi. Yeah. But yeah. Um as always, there's a wee discount code for you guys. If you use behind the paddle at the sanctuaryofsin.com, you'll get a wee 10% discount off everything in store.

Speaker 01 30:38

Yeah. But yeah, right. Bye. Bye.