Speaker 01: 0:00

Right, hello. Hello. Hi, welcome to Behind the Panel Podcast. I am Paulson Victoria.

Speaker 02: 0:13

And I am Emily Son.

Speaker 01: 0:14

Yeah, and today we are going to keep talking about my Parliament visit. Yeah. Yeah. So what were the next questions?

Speaker 02: 0:24

Cool. So in the last episode we kinda discussed what was your kind of inspiration as to why you had decided to speak in Parliament. A little bit about your friend's story which you shared when you were down there, and how police involvement has kind of personally affected your life and work. And we had some positives in there as well. I feel like we got quite like a mixed bag. A mixed back, which is always the case with things, you know, nothing's all bad. And then we had kind of discussed what some of the biggest challenges that you had faced as a sex worker in relation to law enforcement. So we'd covered that in the last episode, and now we're going to kind of speak a wee bit more about like the big picture. So what message were you hoping to convey to Parliament?

Speaker 01: 1:11

The message of women should be able to do what we want to do with our bodies. Yeah. We shouldn't be humiliated or forced to go underground. We shouldn't like wh why is there any need to criticize women or just sex workers in general on doing what they want to do? That because because I don't really come from somewhere where I needed to do sex work. So the main with my situation was just like why to really make a stance on the women, the sex workers that are enjoying their job. Yeah. Why do you want to stop it? We aren't getting forced into doing it. We do truly love it. Yeah. So I really, really wanted to explain to them why proceed without caution. The police need to realise that even if they see us as like a victim, we're not always a victim. Yeah. And they need to do more research, absolutely, into who exactly is being the victim.

Speaker 02: 2:56

And the victims are victims of a separate crime.

Speaker 01: 3:00

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 02: 3:00

And that's what they should be focusing on, rather than like prostitution in and of itself.

Speaker 01: 3:05

Yeah.

Speaker 02: 3:06

Or just sex work generally, but Exactly. That's what they mean when they say this, let's be honest. Yeah. For the most part.

Speaker 01: 3:12

Like when we went to D Crim Scotland, the protest, we it was it was great. There was quite a few people there. And we all most of us took um had had a speech in some way, shape, or form.

Speaker 02: 3:32

And including yourself, which was amazing. An impromptu speech in front of that many people, you've got bigger balls than they.

Speaker 01: 3:40

I was just like, fuck it. I might as well pick up the microphone. Um but yeah, like once they hit one section of us, we've they've already got us with the online safety act. They're gonna be hitting all different types of us.

Speaker 02: 3:58

Yeah.

Speaker 01: 3:59

Like, so when it comes to burlesque stripping, when it comes to phone chat, like webcamers, I guarantee they're gonna come for all of us eventually.

Speaker 02: 4:13

Well, I mean the online safety act's obviously affecting webcamers at the moment already. You know, there is a domino effect with these type of things that like that it's clear to see that's the direction things are heading in at the moment, and that's why like the work that you've been doing is so important because you are being part of the fight against that. Yeah. That is needed to be HUD for things to I don't even want to say change in a positive way, but at least stop changing in a negative way as it is at the moment.

Speaker 01: 4:42

Yeah, we've closed up a bit of a fuss. Yeah, we've tried to get recognition from the government, and it's slowly, slowly working, but it it does really, really need to change in terms of how people see us and how people view us. Like I had somebody call me actually this morning on a no-caller ID number. Now I I'll I'll pick them up every now and again, but I picked it up and I was like, hi, sorry, I can't take your booking because you're on a no-caller ID number. And he was like, Oh, oh, sorry, I didn't realise I was on a no-caller ID number. I'll message you just after this. And I was like, Oh, okay, thank you, goodbye. And he was like, You're a slut. Oh right. You're a whore, that's all you are. And I was like, Right, so you've ranged me for like probably a free wank or just to be a complete cunt.

Speaker 02: 5:38

Yeah.

Speaker 01: 5:38

And it's like, this is the thing that we're dealing with where men don't want us to do what we want with our body, they can't admit that they're okay with that to themselves.

Speaker 02: 5:49

Yeah, like they have to take it out on you.

Speaker 01: 5:51

Exactly. It's like, oh yes, I'm a whore. I'm so used to men calling me like I'm not a woman, I'm whatever a man wants to call me, basically. And it's it's ridiculous, and it's not funny, but it is at the same time where men think because the majority of the abuse that I get is men. Like there are women out there, absolutely, who do not want to see um sex work decriminalized.

Speaker 02: 6:27

I like swurfs and stuff, which is sex work exclusionary feminists. Yes.

Speaker 01: 6:32

Yeah. And it's like we just want to do what we need to survive, especially survival sex workers where they're on the streets or they do have a house, but they have to take certain clients.

Speaker 02: 6:48

Um And as was pointed out when we were at this protest at the weekend, the problem with a lot of the legislation that's getting proposed at the moment is rather than helping these women who are stuck and it's not a job they want to do and are trapped in this situation, they instead of helping them get out of it are going, you can't work anymore. And it like people are in that position because they don't have a choice, yeah, and then they're not giving them any other option out of it. So it's actually affecting the people who are quote unquote victims, at least in the eyes of the law, yeah, and taking them and making their situation worse and not actually helping them.

Speaker 01: 7:29

No.

Speaker 02: 7:29

So it doesn't even make sense from the point of view that they're trying to put it across us. Like it just falls to bits as soon as you start to kind of question it at all. Absolutely.

Speaker 01: 7:39

It's and then you you can ask them, like, oh, have you worked as a sex worker before? And the majority of the time, especially if they're politicians, they got no. Like, they haven't worked a day in their life being a sex worker, and it's like, how can you comment on something when you aren't a part of the people who you're talking about?

Speaker 02: 8:02

When you're not experienced in it, what are you basing it on? Because if you're basing it on the studies, which you should be if you're not knowledgeable in a subject, you should listen to the experts that are. All the studies point towards D-Crim, being the safest and the least harmful, and the most like just generally beneficial to both what the police are trying to fight against and what sex workers are trying to fight for.

Speaker 01: 8:37

Um, in London at Parliament, because the police are being very abusive in so many different ways in so many different areas of the UK. Again, to these quote-unquote victims that they are like my friend wasn't a victim or anything like that. She wanted to do her job, and it's ridiculous, it really is.

Speaker 02: 8:58

Where there are sex workers who just want to get on with it and enjoy it, and it's like As much as you enjoy any job, you know, like it doesn't need to be like the love of their life, like their absolute passion, but like it pays the bills, yeah.

Speaker 01: 9:14

It pays the bills, they enjoy it, and that's enough, yeah. Absolutely, just because you don't agree with it does not mean that um that it has to be shut down, it has to be properly all criminalized and underground and um you basically s spitting at sex workers just because of what they do. Yeah. And proceed without caution. We also met some lovely people and talked about how when people are street walking and they do get cautioned, that is on their record for like uh till you reach 100.

Speaker 02: 9:56

Yeah.

Speaker 01: 9:56

Uh yeah, a hundred years, something like that.

Speaker 02: 9:59

And it's like it just further traps them in that position, which is the thing that they're claiming as like what's happening for everybody.

Speaker 01: 10:06

Yeah.

Speaker 02: 10:06

And yet the way things are handled is actually making that worse. Exactly. Like it doesn't make sense.

Speaker 01: 10:12

It really doesn't. It's like, right, cool. So they've now got that on their record, which comes up on a DBS check. Yeah. And which makes it harder for them to get jobs. Exactly. No, like we heard a few people talk about how they're struggling to get work. Even somebody so young as like 18 to 22, they struggled to get work. And then we had somebody who was in their 50s, and they s th they're on benefits, yeah. They're on universal credit because nobody wants to hire them, not even as a cleaner. Yeah. Um I'll go into it more, but on another episode when we do focus on proceed without caution, but she is a she what she is a carer for her son. And she so like she's had uh she's like at least 18 years of caring, and she still couldn't get a carer's job because of her conviction.

Speaker 02: 11:18

Yeah.

Speaker 01: 11:18

And it's it's ridiculous. And that was like so many years ago as well. And is it's like, why are you stopping us from living, from actually living? Like we're unable to get a job, we're criticized by a good majority of people, sadly. So it is a struggle to make friendships and have partners and everything that goes along with that. Why are you trying to make it even harder for us for a thing that's not even illegal in and of itself?

Speaker 02: 11:53

You know, like obviously there's things around it which are, and that's why so many people do have cautions and stuff like that and do have things on the record, but so much of the reason behind why they've done these things is to keep themselves safe.

Speaker 01: 12:06

Exactly, and it's not their fault.

Speaker 02: 12:08

Because as a woman lone working, regardless of whether you're doing sex work or any other job, it is dangerous.

Speaker 01: 12:14

Yeah. Damn right. It like but if we're working with somebody else, it's done a brothel and you can get running jail. Yeah. And it's just like ridiculous. There is no way to keep us safe. And it's um like one thing in Belgium. I wanna say it's in Belgium. Uh yeah, Belgium. Where recently if you are hired by an agency or a pimp, they've been fighting for two years to get this, where only if you are hired, then you will get maternity leave, you will get like a pension and things like that. And now brothels there need to have like an emergency button. Oh, that's really good. Yeah. Yeah. Um sadly there is nothing talking about if you're just a self-employed. It's just only if you're employed. And if you you cannot become a pimp or a somebody who employs sex workers if you have a criminal record. Yeah.

Speaker 02: 13:23

Which I think that's pretty alright. I think that's fair in the sense of like you are then managing people.

Speaker 01: 13:32

Yeah.

Speaker 02: 13:33

And you're managing a profession that can be exploited. Yeah. Which is basically any profession, let's be honest, but like it has a higher risk of exploitation, let's say. Which is totally fair to say. Like, I understand where like I don't even want to say where some of the prejudice comes from, because that sounds horrendous, and it's not what I mean, but like there is a link there. But there's a link there because this industry is driven so underground because of the stigma, anyway, that it allows space for people to get missed. People don't feel safe to go and speak to the police. Like people are in a vulnerable position, and that's where the exploitation comes in. It's nothing to do with the job in and of itself, but like the situation that the laws surrounding it put people in. Because they it it isolates them in terms of the law and other people in their industry because it's it's not legal for them to be working together.

Speaker 01: 14:38

Yeah, it's even like going to the doctors and talking about what your job is. It's like, are they gonna tell social services? Yeah. Are they gonna tell the police or anything like that? Or like, are they going to like flag up your account or something?

Speaker 02: 14:54

Like puts you in a vulnerable position where you cannot turn for help and therefore are more open to exploitation because of that.

Speaker 01: 15:01

Yeah.

Speaker 02: 15:02

And if the laws changed, that would no longer be the case. The stigma would still be there, and I'm not saying that would go away overnight, but things being illegal or things surrounding them being illegal is where that stigma like gets kept alive because it's like, but it's illegal though. Like, why is it illegal if it's not morally wrong or whatever the word the stigma is based on? So yeah. Yeah. How do you feel policymakers responded to your testimony? Like, actually, when you were there, what was the cane?

Speaker 01: 15:34

So we actually had some members of the Green Party there.

Speaker 02: 15:37

Nice. Um oh, there was someone, one of the MPs was at the protest we were at as well. One of the green MPs, which was pretty cool.

Speaker 01: 15:46

Like, I I I really I like the Greens. I like the effort they're making to actually want to decriminalize this. Yeah. And I I'm not so sure if there was actually other MPs there, really. Yeah. They should get made to be there. Yeah, they should. They absolutely should. So I actually messaged the MP of Invergiving to actually attend. Nice. Did I get a reply? No. No reply, nothing. Yeah. So we'll see in the future if the MPs v get um invited to anything else. But I I'm definitely gonna send an invitation along. But I feel like them not replying speaks volumes. Like, even if it was like I don't I don't believe in the MPs world that an email is missed or anything like that. So yeah, we'll see. We will see. What was it you invited them to? The protest? The parliament, down south parliament, yeah, yeah. Um, and I just didn't get any reply back because I would have appreciated a reply with just saying, Oh sorry, I can't make it, or anything like that. Absolutely, acknowledging that we exist and there is like a meeting, a protest, whatever you want to call it, that needs MPs to listen and hear about us. And we are here and we're gonna stay. Do you know what party they're with? Is it Labour? I want to say yes. Yeah, it was probably Labour like over the majority, so the only ones which I remember were the Green Party coming in to see. Yeah. Which there's no Tories or anything, I don't think. No. But surprise, surprise. I really, really appreciate them taking time out of their day to even pop in for like 10 minutes to hear one of our stories. Um I do believe with the Green Party, like they do want a change, and hopefully it is for the better.

Speaker 02: 17:56

Um They had a lot, like in their um oh my god, my brain's forgot the name for it. Like when it's coming up to election and they've got other like policies that they're taking forward. Like they had quite a lot of stuff to do with sex work in it. Like they're very pro-sex work, so yeah, like and pro-de-crime as well.

Speaker 01: 18:15

I think the ones that did attend, hopefully they took away something in within the lines of man, we do really need to decriminalize this so people can actually work and things like that. But the government are full of rich people. Yeah. The good majority of them, that's how they get in power.

Speaker 02: 18:39

We have not had a prime minister that's not been privately educated.

Speaker 01: 18:42

Yeah. Like I I really hope that they fought about what we all said. But deep down I don't really think they did. Because I I just it doesn't affect them. Same with poverty. Yeah. It doesn't affect them one bit. So I I don't I don't really think if it went in to their heads I don't really think it made any difference to them because they're not in that like majority of people. Yeah. Um the Green Party, I feel like because they're young and they're like they're not new, are they? But like like they're they're very modern and urban, I feel. I know what you mean.

Speaker 02: 19:34

Like they're news. They're with the usual can I Yeah. Um they're not old school, where like like you're a newer party in terms of like obviously Tory and that's been about for like hundreds of years or like or whatever. Like you don't know enough about this to be talking about.

Speaker 01: 19:54

But like they're the ones which have I've seen taken interest massively. Um I know that Lib Dems as well, they are for decriminalizing us, but I don't know enough about that.

Speaker 02: 20:10

Yeah.

Speaker 01: 20:11

But I do know the Green Party, they did turn up.

Speaker 02: 20:15

Yeah.

Speaker 01: 20:15

And they've turned up to two now that I know of. Yeah. Uh and that I have been to. And it's it's doing that, which gives me a little bit of hope, but I don't know if they will ever get in power or anything like that. Yeah. Because Labour, I don't think wants to decriminalise us.

Speaker 02: 20:35

I don't think that they had anything in their policies about sex work either way this time round. I don't think it was a topic that was mentioned within their like policies that they'd pro like their promises going into being elected that I know about. Yeah, because it was Greens. That Greens and Lib Dem were pro, but were also the only ones that actually mentioned sex work at all, as far as I'm aware. I would need to double check that. But that's what I think as well. Yeah, I don't remember seeing anything about it because I did have like a good read through everything at the time, and it was something I was keeping an eye out for, and I don't remember seeing it, so yeah. I don't know that that I think because of how this election was, like that almost wasn't irrelevant, and I don't mean that in a horrible way just because it was this kind of aye.

Speaker 01: 21:26

I mean it's that it's that stigmatized, and the fact that some clients, some men will stand up for us, yeah, but others won't.

Speaker 02: 21:39

Like even the people that use your services are so like to in my eyes full of shame about themselves that they're still against it even though it's something that they And if they have wives, they can't be like they kinda be hopeful about it. Exactly.

Speaker 01: 21:57

Because then their wives will be like, why? Yeah. Like unless their wives support sex workers, but I don't know. Like, um I just I I really, really hope that the MPs that did I I know the Green Party did come because they actually stood up and said something. They were one of the only parties um that actually stood up and said something in regards to proceed without caution. And so the other MPs that did look and listen, I really do hope they took away the fact that we do need help in that regard. Yeah. And poverty is just getting worse and worse, and it all comes down to that basically. Yeah, and if people had more money, they would have more options.

Speaker 02: 22:56

If that is what this is about, unfortunately, it's no, it's what they say it's about, but it's not about that. Like, in my eyes, sex workers have got the option to not just make money, but make big money, uh-huh. To the point that they're like moving up out of the lower class within a lifetime, and I feel like that is a threat, to be honest. That's that's my take on it. It's like without gone in the private school, you know, like it's it's moving people up the class system.

Speaker 01: 23:30

I mean, I've got two properties, and like I would never freaking think that I would be here and I would actually achieve that because I I'd I I doubt I would if I had like a quote unquote normal job.

Speaker 02: 23:46

Um without like degrees and all money that's like do you know what I mean?

Speaker 01: 23:51

Like so I I went to college and I did professional cookery because I wanted to be a chef. I know, and then I still love cooking, but I realised how sexist it was, um, low pay and the grueling hours and the things that can entail with that. Yeah. And I was like, I'd rather not, because like I went for like an interview to be one of the chefs in the kitchen, and the interviewer looked at me and they were like, Oh, we could use a girl for being a bartender, and I was like, I don't want to be a fucking bartender and shit. Like, no, I don't want to be in front of the house just because I've I've got an okay set pair of tits and like a face.

Speaker 02: 24:34

Like, no, see this it's stories like this like that wind me the fuck up when people are like, Oh, but sex workers are like um being abused by men and they're being taken advantage of and the sexism and the this and the that, and I'm like, mate, that just exists everywhere. Yeah, that's not like a sex work specific thing, but at least with sex work, like it's in front of you, and you get to choose who you work with a hell of a lot more than you do if you're a waitress in a bar and you're stuck with whoever's in that night. Do you do you know what I mean? I'm not like obviously I'm not saying that not nothing bad ever happens or whatever, but like you or some people have then more control over who they work with.

Speaker 01: 25:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 02: 25:22

In a way that people who maybe are working in an office and have a shitty manager or shitty colleagues don't to the same extent.

Speaker 01: 25:30

Yeah, it that like there's many different situations of being a sex worker. I don't like seeing them in tears, but like I see survival sex workers here at the bottom, and then you've got like it goes up and up with like how much you can make and things, and like how much um how do I explain this in my lovely autistic head? So, okay, I worked out in my autistic head after a second. So there's like a hill, basically, that you have to climb. Yeah, and you've got right at the bottom, you've got the survival sex workers who gear do something for like £10. Yeah. So like there are different types of choosing who you can work with and who you can't work with because somebody could be doing it for drugs, somebody could be doing it for depression, somebody could be doing it um to fill some sort of addiction, or they could literally be doing it because they love it. Yeah. And it is a very hard hill to climb. So, like, yeah, you've got like survival sex workers at the bottom, and then it slowly goes up to being able to actually afford a place to like rent and being able to afford like maybe a car or something like that, like things which like luxuries and like things which you need to survive, and food and yeah, things like that. So, like I am very, very lucky that I can be like 150 to 200 or whatnot an hour, depending on my area as well. There's like loads and loads of factors to point in. So thankfully, I'm at a stage in my life where to some extent I can choose what clients I see, yeah. Um without worrying if my bills are gonna get paid or not.

Speaker 02: 27:36

I feel like I I totally get what you're saying, where it it's not always that people have that option. Yeah, exactly. If you could implement one immediate change in how law enforcement interacts with sex workers, what would it be?

Speaker 01: 27:50

Oh jeez. Now that's a difficult one because I feel like that ties into so much in terms of actually the bastards was find a loophole. Yeah. They would. I guarantee fucking do it. Because with my friend, they were men that do their due diligence and actually do the research that they fuck.

Speaker 02: 28:10

I like approach people one-on-one and check in with them because it can be so traumatizing for people if they have actually been trafficked into a situation for them to go and raid that property.

Speaker 01: 28:21

Exactly. Like their pimp could be there. Exactly. And like that pimp could like have a gun, a knife. Like, as soon as they walk in, their their life is in danger.

Speaker 02: 28:32

Yeah, they don't know what they're walking into, so they're supposed to actually try and speak to the people first to find out more information.

Speaker 01: 28:38

Yeah.

Speaker 02: 28:39

Before they go full ham.

Speaker 01: 28:41

Yeah, full fucking rage.

Speaker 02: 28:43

And shut like roads and shit.

Speaker 01: 28:46

Yeah. Shut roads, handcuff clients and threaten them, and it's it's ridiculous. And this is the the day and age we live in. It really is, and it's sad, it's pitiful in the way that the police are doing this. It really is. I think there needs to be it's not gonna happen, sadly. I doubt it. That there needs to be a safe space where survival sex workers can take clients somewhere. I know that in the UK there is one road or street where they've like legalized street walking because it was that bad. Yeah. So something needs to happen with that. I don't give a shit that much about myself because there's the trauma response in my head is there's always somebody who's got it worse off. Yeah. And I want to help those people first because I I've been scrutinized for doing this job. Thankfully, I haven't need to like walk the streets and things like that. I haven't gotten to that stage. But I feel that we need to help people who are doing this. That and who are in their lives.

Speaker 02: 30:03

Um so pretty much just decrim then for what you're shooting.

Speaker 01: 30:07

Pretty much fucking decriminalize it.

Speaker 02: 30:08

Full decriminalization. Yeah.

Speaker 01: 30:10

Like if we were to go like the whole hog, yeah, and that's like our one wish we could use it with a genie. Yeah. Then decriminalize it all. Yeah. Because I know in Glasgow we do have the place where people who use needles can go like a needle exchange, yeah, yeah, yeah. So why why can't we have that s with just escorts? Yeah. With like prostitutes. Why why can't we do that?

Speaker 02: 30:36

It needs to get decriminalised first.

Speaker 01: 30:38

Yeah.

Speaker 02: 30:39

Aye. What happened? I can't remember what country it was, but this is a little bit off topic, but it's something that that could happen here if things get done out of order. I remember when there was a needle exchange place got opened, and what was happening is all the police would sit and wait outside it and they would arrest people as they were coming out. I remember we discussed this afternoon. It might have even been in the UK, but it's something tells me it wasn't.

Speaker 01: 31:11

No.

Speaker 02: 31:12

But yeah, things we need to find. Yeah. They'll always find a way. Always it was probably America. That sounds like something that would happen in America. Probably.

Speaker 01: 31:24

Well, I mean they're gonna do that with abortion now.

Speaker 02: 31:26

Yeah.

Speaker 01: 31:28

In that way. Like they're prosecuting the doctors and stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 02: 31:31

Well, that was happening when they first legalised weed in some states. Police from one state were hopping over the border and going and raiding like shops and stuff like that. That were legally in that state selling cannabis, but people were just like the police were just like street justice, basically, and gone and just didn't whatever the fuck they wanted.

Speaker 01: 31:52

Like they will always find a loophole, and it's just like just leave us be. As long as we are able to do it safely to some extent, because there will always be clients and things. Yeah. The majority of our clients are men, I would say, unless you are advertised to a certain demographic bottom.

Speaker 02: 32:13

I feel you would need to be living in like a big city or at least London. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that is not a Scotland-based profession.

Speaker 01: 32:21

Yeah, we've discussed this before where pop uh Scotland is poor, I'm sorry.

Speaker 02: 32:25

But it's also like not as like there's not a lot of people culturally diverse, I would say. As like I guess elsewhere.

Speaker 01: 32:34

Like, oh my god, going to London? Yeah. I'll see everybody. Yeah. It's crazy. It's amazing. And I'm just like, oh, this this is not who I figured that my client would be, like, in a good way, absolutely.

Speaker 02: 32:47

Totally.

Speaker 01: 32:47

Because it is just so different from being in school.

Speaker 02: 32:55

It's not that you don't get that up here, but it's just to the same extent, and then not everybody's using sex work services and it lowers the chances of that.

Speaker 01: 33:04

Exactly. It's like if anybody listens and they're a pop or anything, I want some puppies. Like I love pet play clients, but like they don't pay for it, they just go to events and things like that, or munches, or have actual relationships with people outside of um like a seeing a professional. And yeah, that and adult babies and DGOG, uh the baby boy version as well. I can't remember. Yeah, mummy thingy.

Speaker 02: 33:42

I don't know what the letters are. I'm like MDB.

Speaker 01: 33:43

I know, I'm trying to remember. MDB MD Mummy Dom Baby Boy? Yeah. BB BBMD. Let's say that. We'll go with that. We'll go with that. That's a bit of a myth thing, though, but like there is no um for hire um adult baby room in Scotland, and there's no like pet play rooms and stuff like that. Um but they are common kinks because we have events here in Scotland. We hope that munchies that cater to that. Yeah, well, there is an event, uh padded paws. Where's that? Glasgow.

Speaker 02: 34:24

Ah, I've not come across that one.

Speaker 01: 34:26

It's alright, it's cute, it's cute. They have like a giant ball pit usually. It's nice. And like colouring and drawing stuff. It's good, it's good, it's not too bad. Um, and I think it is in a queer club as well. Um, yeah, there's padded pores, and then we've got the munches. We have a lot of um we we have a few um adult baby events, um, because we have little's lock in, yeah. Um, which is quite known in like Derby and stuff now, um, as well as up in Scotland.

Speaker 02: 34:59

So has that got like adult baby in it as well?

Speaker 01: 35:02

Or uh Little's Lock In is mainly adult. Uh Adult Baby and DJ L G.

Speaker 02: 35:10

Oh right, okay.

Speaker 01: 35:10

Um I just always separate them in my head for some reason.

Speaker 02: 35:14

Like it feels like adult baby is like a different thing to like little.

Speaker 01: 35:18

They're all different.

Speaker 02: 35:18

Yeah, yeah, but it's just like play as well. Just like an over like an umbrella.

Speaker 01: 35:23

So please. Okay, so you've got uh Adult Baby, which is usually wearing diapers, maybe baby food, or something to the equivalent of that.

Speaker 02: 35:35

Yeah.

Speaker 01: 35:35

Uh usually being non-verbal, uh, sometimes like breastfeeding, um, dressing up as usual, which you get in uh DDOG and what is the overall BBMD. That's it, yeah. I'm I'm not I don't I don't because I I enjoy DJOG myself um as the Switch, but like I I I never usually use the fucking other other yeah. Um that one, so DJOG is more I wanna say like going halfway. So like still having like pacifiers in the bottles. Um more role-playing than like No, they're both really role-playing. Because in adult baby, you can still call somebody mummy or daddy.

Speaker 02: 36:27

Totally. I'm just I feel like DDLG, from what I've seen of it, is more sexualized.

Speaker 01: 36:34

Oh yeah, yeah, I know you're gonna say that.

Speaker 02: 36:36

Rather than adult baby, which is what I mean by roleplay, because for me, I know they're both roleplay, but like in my head, roleplay is when it's got like a sexual element, and then the other one's like more like age regression-y, which feels like a different thing.

Speaker 01: 36:48

Yeah, that's like in the sun category these days.

Speaker 02: 36:50

Aye, like um because I feel like you can do DDLG without doing edge play, whereas like it's more about the roles and then adult baby feels more actual edge play to me. But I could that could be an experience.

Speaker 01: 37:10

Uh and a and like a middle as well.

Speaker 02: 37:13

That's when fucking like a teenager can yeah, I think so.

Speaker 01: 37:18

Um and like that's a bit more grown up. Uh-huh. Uh I think it's called big. There's so many roles these days. So many. Um, because like I had to relearn like what the difference between age play and DJ D is. Because you're and then age regression as well. Yeah. Oh, there's like so many, so many. Um, but yeah, there's feel like those kinks, there's like not that many places to go for them, and they don't necessarily really want to hire a professional. Um, but yeah, if you're into any of that, come. But yeah, yeah. Um that was a lovely ADHD event.

Speaker 02: 38:04

Yeah, that was so like a big cool. We're on to our last question anyway. Yeah. So um, what are the long-term goals of advocacy efforts like this, and how can the public support them?

Speaker 01: 38:17

So we can always email uh or send letters to our MPs and be like, please decriminalize this and like give reasons and just spam them.

Speaker 02: 38:30

Yeah.

Speaker 01: 38:31

So like make them listen, make them learn and realize like send them this podcast. Like we really do want to decriminalize it, and we need people to learn more about it and get rid of the stigma because you shouldn't be ashamed at all. And like you're doing whatever you want to do with your body to some extent, really, and we just need to get a grip, really. Yeah, yeah. Just get a grip.

Speaker 02: 39:05

Like, even if you don't agree with sex work as a concept, agree with body autonomy. Yeah. It doesn't need to be your choice for it to still be a choice people could have or should have, you know? Like, you don't need to agree with it to still think that people deserve the freedom to make their own choices.

Speaker 01: 39:23

Exactly. So, yeah, message uh message your MPs, however. Come to our protests, absolutely. You will learn something, I guarantee you, and you will meet an amazing community. Yeah, yeah. Like totally sex workers of any type are like so welcoming and so amazing. I mean, there's always a bad apple. I'm not gonna be like a hundred percent, we're all great, because in any community there are some cunts. But like the majority of us are like amazing. Yeah, yeah. And we do stand for like LGBTQ and everything good, basically. So really, really push for decriminalisation. Um, I would definitely say speak more about it to people.

Speaker 02: 40:21

Yeah, give some of the the kind of local charities and stuff a follow as well, because they're doing some good work kind of going towards um trying to get D-Crim. Yeah, Scotland for D-Crim. Uh Num's got a Glasgow branch, yeah, which is National Ugly Mugs. Um obviously we've got a lot more like kind of UK wide charities, but I think they're the two main like Scottish ones.

Speaker 01: 40:46

I don't I don't think ugly mugs are Scottish, I think.

Speaker 02: 40:48

No, but they're they've got a base in Scotland, is what I mean. Yeah.

Speaker 01: 40:51

Like they're still there was Umbrella Lane, but that's not called Umbrella Lane.

Speaker 02: 40:55

Umbrella Lane now, because I think they've like confined. Um so there's them as well. But I think they're part of National Ugly Mugs. So do you know any more in Scotland? There's some other there's obviously like Swarm. Swarm is that they're amazing.

Speaker 01: 41:11

Scottish though? No, they're not Scottish. That's what I mean. Um they're the only Scottish ones I know, really. Yeah. Because there's not that many of us. But yeah, we need this decriminalised. Yeah. We really, really do. Because I don't want to go to jail. I don't want to go to jail um for any reason because it all it takes is the police to be like, oh, we saw that you were doing this with whoever and whatnot, and like you were taking money off a client or something. That's all it takes is just one cop who doesn't like us, and that's it. Yeah. Like, I love my job and I want to see people, survival sex workers, who are on the street, off the street, and safe to some extent.

Speaker 02: 42:03

The fate of someone's existence shouldn't have come down to like one person.

Speaker 01: 42:08

It shouldn't come down to acceptance. Yeah. It should just be we want you to be safe, we want you to be respected, we want you to have no worries about doing your job.

Speaker 02: 42:20

You want us to be able to come and speak if there is a problem and be able to report crimes, actual crimes, harmful, violent crimes.

Speaker 01: 42:30

Exactly.

Speaker 02: 42:32

To the police. Yep.

Speaker 01: 42:35

That's great. Fucking wonderful.

Speaker 02: 42:39

But overall, was it worth the trip down? Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 01: 42:43

It opened up my mind even more, and I didn't realise the struggles that people had. Yeah. In terms of especially police cautions and the fact that they stay on your record for so long and you struggle to get a job and everything like that. It's this like I that this is the trauma speaking of myself. Like, I I don't I like I feel bad going because I've always been so so lucky with like what clients and things like that, and it makes me even more sad that people are dealing with this, yeah. And that there are people who are struggling so goddamn much where the government just doesn't care, where the police just doesn't care, and they see us and they think, oh, they deserve to be in the gutter, basically, and they're gonna laugh at us. And it's like we're human beings as well, yeah.

Speaker 02: 43:35

Like you deserve respect and you deserve rights, and that's what Oilus is about. Yeah, now asking for the beer fucking minimum.

Speaker 01: 43:44

Exactly, and it it's it's like the whole, oh, this is somebody's daughter, this is somebody's wife. Like, do they think that when they watch porn? I I know no, they think it if their own daughter or if their own wife is doing it, and then they go, Oh, because like for whatever reason because everyone else is dehumanised to them, they don't think about them being real people. Yeah, that's exactly and it's like oh I wouldn't want my daughter to do porn, and I I I I am just saying the female side of it because I feel like the female side gets a lot of scrutiny, yeah. Um, and again the laws are quite gendered to females and it's like if my daughter did porn, as long as she's safe, as long as she's safe, to as as safe as possible, yeah. I wouldn't promote being an escort to her or anything like that, but as long as she's safe, yeah.

Speaker 02: 44:44

Absolutely. It's her choice at the end of the day. It's her own body, yeah.

Speaker 01: 44:48

Yeah. And it's just like, why are you going to control that? Like, what right do you have? So Yeah, it it could be somebody's sister, somebody's daughter, somebody's mother.

Speaker 02: 45:03

I feel like it's always when it's the daughter though.

Speaker 01: 45:06

Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 02: 45:07

That it becomes like a reality to them. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 01: 45:10

The dads can get like defensive and stuff, and like they do feel shame. Um, and I feel like my dad does probably feel shame because um when so when I was 15, I webcamed and stuff. I know, I know, I don't need to hear it. But he said to me um something along the lines of I don't agree with it, but if you want to continue this as a career, 15-year-old me, I love that he knew that this was gonna be my career to some extent. He said that if this is gonna be your career, I will stand by you. But he doesn't want that, yeah. He didn't want that. So I think my own father sees my achievements, like getting a house um and having a kid, and I don't know how that's an achievement, actually. To some people to some people, having a kids is like an achievement. Um but like having a good life in a way, that's what he sees. Yeah, he doesn't see me like um what can I say? He doesn't see me like shitting on men.

Speaker 02: 46:33

I was literally gonna do that, and I was like, is that where she's going?

Speaker 01: 46:38

Like he doesn't see me shitting, pissing on men, he doesn't see me opening up my legs or anything like that. He thinks it like in the ways of oh, I I don't wanna think about my daughter that way. Um and like make sure she gets tested and things like that, like a good bit of safety. But when I talk to him, some of the things he says, I know that he doesn't want me to do this job. Yeah, but he knows that I enjoy it and that's all that should matter. Exactly. Yeah. But I know that he sees my achievements rather than um understanding the job that I do, really.

Speaker 02: 47:28

Which a lot of people that's what matters, do you know what I mean? Is seeing like the money or the results side of things over.

Speaker 01: 47:35

Oh no, this is a good one. When I was on video call with my f dad, um somebody else was there, and m my dad uh what like told him what my job was, and that was fine. And the guy was just like, Oh, I'm really, really proud of you, and so this is another family member, and he was like, I'm really proud of you. It's not like you're an addict, and I was like, right, so you do see just my achievements then, yeah, and you don't see what I stand for or who I am and everything like that, or the skills that you have and the reputation that you've built, and like I'm sorry, like um, like I've had like I guess you could call it an eating disorder. I still have to like admit things to myself, but like for somebody to say that fucking shocking, absolutely, and I was very, very much taken back by like how can you say that? I would be proud of my daughter or my son or my little non-binary little creature of what they're doing, even if they were an addict, like I would help them as well, yeah, any way they could. Like it it's it's it it baffles me that that's what they said because it's like why are you putting the two together in the way of like in like not a competition, but like that's where their brain goes when you hear that. And it's like I was like um what addicted to eating all the food on my plate and stuff, like uh that because of how I grew up and like I've got trauma and stuff, but none of that is like taken into consideration. It's oh you're you're not an addict. Like, what the fuck? But yeah, so I've had criticism with a few people, um, but yeah, that is the end of the episode leaving on a fucking high where yeah, usually it is fathers where it's like I wouldn't want my daughter to do this and stuff, and it's like you've just jacked off to somebody's daughter. And I and that doesn't phase you.

Speaker 02: 50:07

Yeah. This is the bit that always really bugs me. Aye, that's the thing that really bugs me, is like it's the hypocriticalness at all, where like sex work is like morally wrong and it has all the stigma attached, but like watching porn does not. Like, I'm not saying that actually physically seeing sex workers doesn't, but I don't really get what the difference is between that and like porn in terms of like it's two people having sex for money. Like, why does one I'm not saying that there is any stigma attached with like people that make porn as well, but there's less stigma attached, especially these days with like OnlyFans and stuff blown up to be it has. I feel like it's getting more normalized.

Speaker 01: 50:51

I feel like it is getting more normalized, but also the internet, because I see it on Twitter all the time, where men um talk shit uh constantly, where it's just like oh she's such a whore doing this and all that stuff, and it's like how can her dad see her? Yeah, it's just like it it it is really just you're a human being at the end of the day, just let them do whatever they want.

Speaker 02: 51:21

It goes back to this hierarchy again that we've spoken about like a million times, but uh, I feel like it's so relevant, especially when it comes to discussing like the law and the kind of legislation and stuff in place because that hierarchy exists within the legislation as well.

Speaker 01: 51:35

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 02: 51:36

Even about well, if you take like you can get two porn creators that have never met each other who meet up to have sex and film it. Yeah, I don't understand morally like that what the difference is between that and someone visiting a sex worker, other than one of them's getting paid and one of them's just not and having a good time. Well you can still get paid. Or you can still get paid if it's gonna be.

Speaker 01: 52:05

Because like I've been paid for porn shoots and stuff like that, and it's just like how, how on earth is that making any sense?

Speaker 02: 52:15

I don't understand it. Is it because more people watch porn, so they've had to like kinda mental gymnastics it to be okay in their heads? But then as we've discussed, like that's not even the case because if that was the case, people there wouldn't be as much there still is quite a lot of stigma against people who make porn. Even though like I don't know anybody that doesn't watch porn. Like I know it's just not yeah.

Speaker 01: 52:43

Uh going on to something different here. Did you see the I cannot remember her name, bless the documentary, uh Pornhub documentary, she put on Pornhub, I think. Um, of this woman sleeping with uh 100 men. No, I didn't see that. Um yeah, basically she was all happy and everything like that. She she did it for fun, yeah. Um I think she slept with all of them um in or like gave a blowjob to a hundred men, I'm not too sure. Um I haven't watched it because I just I don't really think it sh shows us in a good light, but it also um shows an extreme side of like trafficking, but it's got nothing to do with trafficking, but she has like a hundred men within a day or something, like literally lined up. Uh-huh. Um, and she comes out fucking traumatized, basically.

Speaker 02: 53:44

Oh right, okay.

Speaker 01: 53:45

And I'm like, okay, so that this isn't showing it. Was this an A D? Yeah.

Speaker 02: 53:50

Right, okay.

Speaker 01: 53:50

Yeah, like her eyes were like red. Yeah. Like whether it's the jaw or down below, it's not gonna be no difference. Like, exactly. It's it's gonna hurt either way. Yeah. But you know, she came out with tears in her eyes and everything like that, she was fucking broken. Um She did this for fun? Yeah, for a documentary. Oh, for the documentary.

Speaker 02: 54:14

Okay.

Speaker 01: 54:14

Not fun then. I'm sure she thought it might have been fun. Yeah. Aye. But it's like a hundred random men. Yeah. That's gonna be good. And I feel like that just shows the trafficking side of like what the realities are for trafficked women and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even though I had nothing to do with that, that's what I saw.

Speaker 02: 54:39

Like that's you always go to the dark place.

Speaker 01: 54:41

I do, I really do. Like, I I didn't like I I know that my inquiries, some people, men, think that I have like a hundred men a day or at least ten a day. Yeah. And it's also disgusting when I get a man who says, Oh, don't wash. Because he thinks I've already had a client. Yeah. Or I get a client who says, Oh, I want to be your first client of the day. And I'm like, mate, I only take like one a day or something like that. Like if I choose to. Yeah. And it's like I don't have like more than three people in a day. These days, not even like two.

Speaker 02: 55:22

Yeah.

Speaker 01: 55:23

Um, out of choice. But like the nerve to say that.

Speaker 02: 55:30

Yeah. I feel like people this is like coming back to all these connotations that people have in their heads.

Speaker 01: 55:35

Yeah. They feel we shag all day.

Speaker 02: 55:38

It's either the lifestyle or the job is totally and utterly glamorised, or it's shown as like being in the gutter, and there's like no in between at all. It's either like totally sensationalized or it's totally vilified. Yeah. And like, yeah, there needs to be more like reality checks for like what actually what a day in the life is like. I was unfascinating.

Speaker 01: 56:00

No, no, well, uh proper reality, because there are people on there are women on TikTok who really glorify it, and it's like day in the life of like a Dominatrix or a day in the life of an escort or a sugar baby.

Speaker 02: 56:12

But that's still it's TikTok, so it's sensationalized, you know, like it's not gonna get the views if it's like I'm sitting a bit watching the telly.

Speaker 01: 56:19

Yeah, but that's my day.

Speaker 02: 56:23

I'm playing fucking Fortnite.

Speaker 01: 56:26

I play Fortnite. Like that is like a normal day where like you do have some peace and quiet at some point.

Speaker 02: 56:36

Taking a dom line call while like making some macaroni.

Speaker 01: 56:39

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. While you're mid fucking shit. Oh, I had one the other day where I was just like, Do you want to hear me piss? And he was like, Yes. I was like, all right, go on. I was like, are you ready for a shit? And he was so game and he had coming and everything. I was like, this is perfect. Yeah, it fits in so well.

Speaker 02: 57:04

It's you should start putting up on Twitter like um like shitting in five minutes. Call me on Domline.

Speaker 01: 57:12

I've probably got some fucking people as well too fast. But no, um we we've kind of went sidetracked, but still within like proceed without caution where it comes with like stigma and stuff like that. Totally. Um but yeah, proceed without caution was good and going to parliament and it was really, really empowering. Yeah. Overall, it was so good. And to see that there were people who were gonna stand by us and were there for us. Yeah. And there are communities and charities who do care. Totally.

Speaker 02: 57:55

Um yeah. I would imagine that must feel nice for like a job that can be so isolated and stuff that like there's more out there than you realise, and there's more support and more resources. Not government funded, but community funded. And I feel like I don't know, at least then the government's not gone like, oh, this money should only be spent on X, Y, and Z, like it's actually going where it needs to go.

Speaker 01: 58:16

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 02: 58:18

So it's not like pledged or whatever to a certain cause, which they should be getting money, they're they're a charity, they're doing work and they're helping people.

Speaker 01: 58:27

That should be enough. But they just don't agree with how we use our bodies or that poverty exists. Because that, you know, that's just make-believe. Um yeah, what else? Yeah, so at some point there will be another Scotland protest. And if anybody also knows me, they can they can come up to me, whether it's work or lifestyle. Yeah. You are more than welcome to come up to me because I did get a few messages of some people who did attend and they were like, Oh, I didn't know if to approach or not. Nah, fucking come see me because I do want to see who actually like properly goes out their way and supports us, and I wanna like we're a community at the end of the day, whether you're a sex worker or not, yeah. Like, we appreciate any help and any push that will, you know, get us uh the attention that we need. Um and if by chance there are any journalists or anything like that, please post the actual correct material because recently we were in one paper, the protest. Oh, right, okay. Um, the Scotland protest, and it was just incorrect facts. And it's like, come on, but yeah, if you do actually want to support us, then speak to actual sex workers. And get to know us, get to know the community, get to know what what our lives are like. And really push for D cramp. Yeah.

Speaker 02: 1:00:14

Yeah.

Speaker 01: 1:00:14

Totally.

Speaker 02: 1:00:16

Well, I think that's us at the end of the episode. So thank you so much for listening, guys. Yeah. I've been Possum Victoria. And I have been Emily Sin. Um we are in our Christmas gear because we're also recording our Christmas episode today.

Speaker 01: 1:00:33

Yeah.

Speaker 02: 1:00:33

So if you want to see us, go and check out our Dark Fans, which is in our all my links. As always, I've got a little 10% discount code for you guys. If you use Behind the Paddle at checkout at thesancuryofsin.com, you can get that off.

Speaker 01: 1:00:49

Yeah. Is it too early to advertise the uncensored market?

Speaker 02: 1:00:56

Well, we just had our one on Sunday. It went fucking amazing. And we have got our date for the next one, so it's six months away. But if you're keen, it's already up on Fet Life. If you want to go and say that you're interested or attending to kind of keep an eye on it.

Speaker 01: 1:01:09

Yeah, Fet Life kinky version of Facebook.

Speaker 02: 1:01:12

Yeah, it'll be on the 7th of June next year. So excited.

Speaker 01: 1:01:16

Yeah, I think that's it. Interesting, guys. Remember to follow our dark fans. Yeah. And we can humiliate you and things like that if you DM us and talk to us and like we can work something out. But yeah, do not forget to leave us a review on all the platforms as well. Reviews really help us out. I'm gonna assume it's five stars. But yeah, you should be able to find my links to any of my stuff um through behind the paddle, all links and any of your stuff as well. Yeah. So yeah. Bye.