Speaker 1: 0:00

Right and hi, welcome to a behind and paddle podcast. This is part two of Proceed Without Caution. So we are um just gonna go right ahead into it. And I'm Paulson Victoria and I'm Emily Son. Um yeah, so today we're gonna talk about Proceed Without Caution. And the next um paragraph we're gonna talk about is methyl method oh my gosh.

Speaker 2: 0:34

So we're gonna we're going into the actual research findings of the report for this one. And this is just like how they got that information. So what what they used for that.

Speaker 1: 0:44

Yeah, so this is the methodology. Methodology. Interviews were conducted with 12 current and former sex workers. Participants were aged between 25 and 64. All had criminal records except one woman who has been under investigation by police for over a year. Some had received multiple prostitutes, cautions, and convictions. Four of their interviewees are women of color, of those two are migrant. Seven interviewees are white women. Women from the ECP, some of whom had convictions themselves, interviewed their workmates, friends, and others in our network. We asked a specific set of questions, but also left space for women to speak about related issues.

Speaker 2: 1:46

Cool. So on to the research findings. The first of which was on leaving prostitution slash finding other work. So over two-thirds of the women interviewed said that a prostitute's caution under conviction had been the reason they found it hard to leave sex work and find another job. Women described how having a record for prostitution meant they didn't apply for jobs for fear that the conviction would come up. They spoke about being prevented from applying for or accepting promotions or moving into other areas of work. Women felt they had been locked in low-wage jobs and were wary of their workmates finding out about their criminal convictions and this affected their relationships with them. Overall, women felt that their possibilities were thwarted by the burden of a caution/slash conviction. One spoke of turning to sex work as a teenage single mother trying to earn money quickly to pay the rent. Seven years later, she tried to find an office job. After declaring four convictions, all of them related to prostitution, she was refused. Seventeen years later, she is still in the sex industry. This is a quote. At the age of twenty five, seven years into the industry, I tried to leave. I had three kids to feed and tried to look for a job in an office, but they did a DBS check and my convictions came up. I already had four convictions by then, all of them related to prostitution, so I didn't get the job. I had to carry on with prostitution. She wasn't alone, other women spoke of being trapped in prostitution by a criminal record. This is another quote. Hooking is the only thing getting the record leaves you to do. Either you lie on applications and live with the fear that they're going to find out, or you explain what you did. I don't want to explain it to people. I'm too proud to say, well, actually I was a hooker, now please give me a job. The job I started as part-time for a short time has become full-time for life. Another said that before she got a conviction, she was able to combine sex work and other work which she found rewarding and satisfied her interests, even though it was low paid. Working in education, working in old people's homes, I can't do those jobs anymore because I was working with vulnerable people. Now I wouldn't pass a DBS check to work in a school or care home. I just avoid all situations where I know I'd be asked those questions. Once I got arrested, that was it. I just started the hooking full-time, my other career just stopped. Estimates suggest that over 90% of sex workers identify or work as women. When trying to get other jobs outside of sex work, many women say that they want to apply for jobs that involve caring for children, young or older people. One woman said that being blocked from constructive work was humiliating. She felt that despite having a lot to contribute and life experience that could be helpful to educate young people and adults, having a conviction for sex work was a barrier to offering anything to society. Another woman described how she was kept out of jobs she would have ideally been suited for. Yes, there are many jobs I would have loved to do, jobs I've been offered and had to say no to. Caring for my daughter over the years, I've learned things like supervising medications, doing injections, chip feeds and the rest. Social services asked if I'd considered doing emergency respite. It's excellent money and would have suited my life and skills. It's perfect for me and would have fitted around what I need to do with my own child. But I couldn't even think about it as they would have done the checks, found out and I would have lost my own child, especially as I have a disabled child. If convicted of a sexual offence while looking after someone with a learning difficulty, you're considered to be putting that person in moral danger. So it's a big no-no. You don't want to apply for the jobs that suit you, and the ones you'd like to do. One woman described the deep disappointment and thwarted ambitions of having to refuse work, which I'm totally qualified for, but can't possibly do because I've been criminalized, saying, I'll never know what life could have been. Even though there is no element of dishonesty, prostitutes' cautions and convictions are seen as an indication of an immoral character, and in many cases are judged more harshly than convictions for other minor non-violent offences. This begs the question whether sexism is involved in this. I thought, if that's the limit, my chances are not great, and it's probably not worth training. It would be nice if you could change your life around and be left to it unhindered. I could have been an amazing teacher. A number of women described how having a conviction trapped them in poverty by keeping them out of better paid jobs. They were forced to live on benefits or accept low-wage work. I got a job in a care home in Liverpool. They didn't have disclosure, you see, so once you applied, they did disclosure and I just left. It stopped me from having from applying for any job really. I ended up living on benefits with my children. It caused me all kinds of problems and I had no money. I've done a lot of care work in my family, and not just family. But then I send for this DBS thing and it it just totally put me off, so I ended up getting a job in a shop, and I've been working there ever since. Hard work. Don't get as much money as I used to, but I enjoy it. One woman complained that nowadays everything requires a criminal record check. She asked with anger, Where's the rehabilitation for me? Why don't you put me back in prison if you're saying I've got got not got any use out here in society? We did a small poll of various women in our network and everyone confirmed that they had had to have a DBS check for every job outside of sex work that they had applied for. Only one interviewee found a shop that did not require a DBS check and got a job and was able to leave prostitution. Interviewees described the limitations imposed on them by a criminal record. In some cases the only option appeared to be for women to work for themselves, but in others it was exactly that option that they were prevented from pursuing. One woman who trained as a counsellor after her caution and found her tutors accepting described how she felt very unconfident going into an interview, and it has a lot to do with the caution. Instead, she's setting up a private practice so that she doesn't have to go through that experience of having no hope. I've done so many trainings because I realized there were so many jobs that I could not do. So now I'm doing training doing a training in sports massage therapy for ITEC level 3 to be a professional sports therapist. For this I didn't need a DBS check, but if I wanted to open a sports therapy shop, my own business, I wouldn't be able to do so because I have a criminal record. One woman spoke about how her conviction stopped her diversifying in her line of work and the impact it would have on her workmates found out if she had a criminal record for prostitution. I work in a warehouse, but there has been times that they've asked me to drive and I always say no because you'll want to look at my record, and I'm not doing that for the whole of Sainsbury's thousand employees to be talking about me.

Speaker 1: 9:05

Yeah. That's horrible. Yeah. That is so horrible. The fact that some sex workers just don't even bother because they know they'll get rejected. Yeah. And they'll be exposed.

Speaker 2: 9:17

They're not going to put themselves up to humiliation and all of these things that we kind of spoke about. Like there's stigma attached with this role that is just the legal side, it just adds to that.

Speaker 1: 9:30

Exactly. And it is it's it's just gut-wrenching, it really is. And I know well just in general, there'll be, let's be honest, men who go, Oh, but I bet you she will find a job. And it's like, no, no, no, we won't, because it is so so difficult, and you haven't walked this path. Yeah. And we're not bullshitting or anything like that. Like, these are hardcore facts where it is hard for women with cautions.

Speaker 2: 10:02

Anybody with cautions, like uh, I have never applied for for a job that hasn't had that check attached. Yeah. And I've applied for jobs in a lot of different industries, a lot of different professions, like and thinking back, there has not been a one, not even volunteering, anything that hasn't had that check attached to it.

Speaker 1: 10:21

Rehabilitation. Okay. Like it goes, it goes again, it goes back to like poverty and things.

Speaker 2: 10:28

This is the case of anybody with any criminal conviction, like how the reoffending rate here is so high in comparison to countries that actually have good rehabilitation programmes, because people are trapped in the cycle. But like there's There's no way out. How can they reintegrate into society? Which is the whole point in rehabilitation if there's just not work for them.

Speaker 1: 10:50

Exactly.

Speaker 2: 10:51

For for anybody in that situation, but especially in this case, because the law treating them as victims, and yet society isn't. And the law isn't, but they're saying they are, is more than point, but yeah.

Speaker 1: 11:03

Ridiculous. So access to justice. Women described how having a prostitute's caution or conviction on your record deterred them from reporting rape, domestic violence, and other crimes, and how it meant that they received worse treatment from the police, courts, and even lawyers. Yeah. Like all liars, true, absolutely true. Where you don't want to report anything. Yeah. It is an absolute joke. Um, yeah, it it's how it is. It's how it how it says this was your one. Oh, that was my one.

Speaker 2: 11:46

It's fine. I'll I'll do that and then we'll yeah. Um having a criminal record, so education and training, going on from what I was saying. So having a criminal record as a bar to accessing education and training. Three women specifically meant to mention this in interviews. So three quotes. Study was impossible for me. What would be the point of racking up student debt and studying only to find I was not still not able to get any job, let alone a well-paid one? Um, I've tried to apply to universities because I wanted to go into healthcare, but it's the first question they ask you about. The nature of the conviction is so embarrassing that I didn't even proceed. I didn't want to talk about it, and it was over ten years ago. I applied for the course in adult nursing in a university and I had an interview as well. But after all this happened and I was under investigation, I couldn't do that because before applying to the course I had to do a DBS check. So I changed to do the dental nursing thinking that I would not have to do a DBS check, but I found out after one month volunteering at the dental practice that yes, I needed to do a DBS check.

Speaker 1: 12:51

That's horrible. That is horrible.

Speaker 2: 12:56

It just follows you for life.

Speaker 1: 12:59

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:59

So that never changes, yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:02

Reporting rape and other violence. Most women who had experienced rape and other violence, including domestic violence, did not report it to the police. When they did, women found the police hostile and disbelieving. Yeah, fair. No. I was raped when working not long after getting a caution. Uh I was treated really badly because they knew I was working. The doctor who examined me was really cold and unkind. And after I was dropped in the middle of the city in a paper suit at four in the morning, which is really risky, dumping me in nothing but paper. I put that down to the fact I was working and the stigma from the caution. I did not report the rape, but I left it in the end. Now it's it's sort of when when it comes to like domestic violence and stuff, with things to do with my past, yeah, I've been there where it's like you got proof. Have you got proof of this happening? Like they need solid hard, no, they don't need, they want solid hard evidence of some domestic violence or rape. Yeah. They they really want it to actually continue and to actually hopefully do something about it. And if you can't prove it, then it's your loss.

Speaker 2: 14:30

Yeah. Yeah. There's new I I'm saying new, this was like a good few years ago now, like laws have been put in place in Scotland for domestic violence where the I would imagine that you would need less evidence overall, just in the sense that the police can actually um be the prosecutor, like they don't need the victim to step forward or prosecute the person in order for them to proceed to it, which I think it's about a double-edged sword in the sense of like obviously this is amazing and great, but there is a potential for abusive power in there that comes along with that. And it's something that like I have experienced with like friends of mine that had an argument and then couldn't see each other for six months because the police arrested the guy and took it to court as domestic violence when that there was there was none, it was just an argument. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 15:29

Um it's like um one of my friends, um, she got given like uh I think it was like bell papers or something like that. And her partner answered the door and the police officer laughed and was like, Oh, is it a wee domestic? And then I was it was that disgusting. Yeah, that a wee domestic can be laughed at. Yeah. And that was a male police officer. Yeah, and it's just disgusting that a wee domestic can be found um humorous by somebody. Uh oh, disgusting, disgusting. And he had no idea what the papers were about or anything like that.

Speaker 2: 16:06

Yeah, like it easily could have been. And why is that how you're handling that situation?

Speaker 1: 16:11

Exactly. Like if somebody turned up to the door with a black eye, would he have made that? It's like, no, no. Disgusting, really disgusting. Um, that was a quote where I started uh to say I was raped when working. And the next part, domestic vi violence victims received a partially harsh treatment from the police and also from the courts. Quote, police assumed I got beat up by my ex purely because I was on the streets. They said have it before. That's disgusting.

Speaker 2: 16:48

Oh victim blaming it at its finest.

Speaker 1: 16:51

Right? It's like it's your fault, you're on the streets. Disgusting. Go after the actual people who were doing this. Quote, with the prostitution case, when the first case ended in a hung jury, they went back for another trial. My previous record might have affected that decision, end quote.

Speaker 2: 17:16

So reporting other crimes. Over two-thirds of women interviewed stated that they would be less likely to report any crimes committed against them. Quote, if I was a victim of another crime, whatever it was, I wouldn't ever feel able to report to the police because of my conviction in 2013 and how I was treated around that. Another quote, no, I wouldn't report now I wouldn't report now, to be honest. The police aren't interested in helping people. A former officer once told me the GMP, Greater Manchester Police, are the biggest gang in the country. In other cases, it was specifically the caution or conviction that prevented women reporting crimes against them. One woman described how during a raid of the flat where she was working, the police found out about her convictions from decades ago and how they changed from respectful to vile. However, she notes that the migrant woman she was working with was treated badly from the start. Quote, My record has definitely affected the way authorities have treated me. I am a receptionist now in a flat in London and we were raided by around 16 police officers. I gave them a false name and a false address because I haven't been doing prostitution for over ten years, and I have three daughters and six grandchildren. I don't want to put any of them in jeopardy, and even though I paid my children's way through life using it, they mostly don't know. The police spoke very nicely to me at first. But one of the officers, an older man, recognized me and I was fingerprinted. My whole record came up breaches of asbos, loiter and unpaid fines, even my conviction from twenty nine years ago. After that, the police were vile. They stayed for another three hours and treated us badly. The girl working there, a migrant woman, they treat they had treated badly from the beginning. A number of women described being doubted and disbelieved by police because of a conviction. One said the police made her feel feel like the pot calling the kettle black when she reported a crime. That's horrible. One participant said she feels confident to report crimes now that she has left the sex industry, but back in the day it definitely affected my ability to report crimes towards myself or other people due to fear. Some women had described abusive police targeting them. Quote, one time I was in the pub and the coppers came up and said we saw you on the beat. They knew I had a conviction, so they had that over me. They said, You tell us everything you know, and we'll give you a free pass on the beat. And when I told them I didn't know anything, they said, Don't you fucking set foot out of your house because we know where you live. I couldn't go out for ages because I was scared. Ridiculous. One woman who is a woman of colour said the police knew her from a young age. The copper quote, the coppers treated me terrible. They were arresting me over and over, they treated me like I was rubbish. You were no one to them. She didn't mention racism from the police here, but spoke about it later in relation to her family and community. Fear of arrest was specifically mentioned as one of the reasons women didn't report violence. Quote, working now as a receptionist, I am likely to get attacked or robbed, but I wouldn't report. I'd be going back to square one. I'm old now. I don't want to go back to prison. I'd be getting arrested a hundred percent. Another quote. The doctors called the police because they knew it had been violent, but the case never even made it to court. I didn't even report it. I couldn't put him behind bars. I didn't want to go down for brothel keeping because I was working with other girls indoors at the time and so ho I'm like nearly making me cry, man. This is It's rough. It's real and it sucks. Another quote. Back in the day, they'd arrest me because I was working in a brothel or loitering. But now if I report and say I'm the receptionist, I go down for control and the girl I'm working with is an EU citizen and has the right to live and work here, and she does so of her own free will, but the police will accuse me of pimping her, which I have seen happen. Another woman who was tied up during a violent robbery was sickened to be questioned by police who asked, Are you sure it wasn't just a client who didn't pay you? It was offensive. I said for one, I wouldn't take clients to the house because that's where my daughter is, and even if I had been paid, that would and should still be a crime. They never even investigated it. They knew what I had done before they even entered the house, and that was the first thing that was said to me. It isn't just the police that discriminate against women with convictions. One interviewee said she had been refused representation by more than one lawyer in the past. Another described working with the solicitor who was positive at first, but once he found out I'd been a sex worker and received a conviction, he was he uh he was not even on my side. Yeah. That was that was a lot.

Speaker 1: 22:14

Yeah, it it's disgusting how sex workers are treated. Even if you're a bloody receptionist, it's not even treated like human beings. Exactly. Right. Well, Emily recovers because that the I I've heard this multiple times.

Speaker 2: 22:34

You heard it in person, which oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:36

I I'm I'm just like I'm used to it so much with having experienced it and witnessed it and hearing all about it. And like it doesn't faze me as much anymore because it's like that's life. It's that that's life as a sex worker, and like trying, I'm I'm trying not to cry just a wee bit because like it is like the negatives about this job where this can happen, and it is happening, and it's it's one of those where it's like, oh, this never happens to me, and like yeah, it can do. It absolutely can do if you're in this industry, no matter if you're a dominatrix, no matter if you're on the freaking street corner and you're not even a sex worker, you can still be told, oh, we think you're a sex worker. So we're gonna bring you in, we're gonna question you, we're gonna pressure you, we're gonna drill you for hours about why you look this way, why you do what you do, are you being forced into doing it? And we're gonna make you hopefully crack.

Speaker 2: 23:48

That is regardless of whether you're not.

Speaker 1: 23:51

And we won't use the word guilty because it's not you've got nothing to be guilty about. That's what really pisses me off. Is that for me, the word guilty feels like you have uh it sounds like you have done something wrong, whereas it's like no, you haven't at all.

Speaker 2: 24:08

By whose standards, exactly, and or these people that we trust, you know, that's yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 24:16

Like I'm I'm guilty of loving my job, absolutely, but I'm not gonna say I'm guilty of like doing my job in a bad way, where like I should be sent to prison or something like that, because it it just saying you're guilty, it really gives the perspective of what you're doing is really wrong.

Speaker 2: 24:42

Yeah, and it's morally wrong, and that's not the case.

Speaker 1: 24:46

Exactly, and it shouldn't be the case, sadly. And all this, what is in this little book which I have is it's just a small portion about what happens and what can happen, and how injustice the world of sex work is, and how it literally is police brutality where they're abusing the powers that they have. Exactly. And it's so sad because it even comes down to like the lawyers, solicitors, and people who do offer you a job, once they find out what you've if you've got a caution or conviction of doing sex work, then it's like bye-bye.

Speaker 2: 25:40

I find it really interesting that like what I'm assuming in in this instance would be like a criminal defence lawyer would take on the case a murderer over that of a prostitute. Or like how less likely juries and stuff are to go in their favour. Yeah. Which is terrifying. It is. It just goes to show like how good this campaign like hate is doing at the moment.

Speaker 1: 26:10

So compensation as a victim of crime. Anyone who is a victim of violence has the right to make an application for financial compensation to the criminal injuries compensation board. But if someone has a criminal record, the board can bar them from getting compensation or reduce the amount. What the fuck?

Speaker 2: 26:32

No, no. That's not how that works. That doesn't make you even more likely to be a victim of the court or anything.

Speaker 1: 26:39

No, not at all. One woman gave a harrowing account of suffering sexual abuse in a care home as a child and having her compensation award reduced because years later, as an adult, she was convicted of loitering and soliciting.

Speaker 2: 26:59

That's disgusting. How does that even be allowed? Like, I don't understand. They're two different fucking things. They're not related. Like, what difference does that make? Or not related in terms of like the law.

Speaker 1: 27:10

Like one is sexual abuse and the other is soliciting and loitering. Like was that a conviction or a caution? Uh convicted. Convicted, cool. That that's just disgusting. That really is just like, oh, you z you suffered sexual abuse.

Speaker 2: 27:32

We're gonna give you less money because that screams, oh well, it couldn't have been that bad if you've chosen to go into that as a laney work. That's what that reads to me. Exactly. Not not Not that I feel that way, obviously, but like that's the the motivation behind like the trauma could absolutely go into the reason why you went into sex work and things like that.

Speaker 1: 27:51

So it's like you've still got things to consider of like why the sex work happened potentially, but clearly they've went, oh fuck that. We're just gonna make your life worse and we're gonna make it mean that your sexual assault means nothing, basically. Oh, quote unquote. I ended up in care. I ended up in a care home through no fault of my own because my mum committed suicide. There was abuse that went on the care home. I was there between four and nine years old. It was the head of the care home that was touching and him getting his bloody thing out and putting me on his knee when it was dark in the living room at night time. So eventually I claimed compensation. I was given £12,000 compensation and it was reduced by 50% because I had a criminal record. And the record was obviously from the prostitution. This was 25 years ago, and to twelve two four uh 12,000 pounds was a lot of money, and they took it from me. Not uh end quote. None of the other women interviewed said they had felt able to get compensation after a crime was committed against them. They knew that convictions and cautions relating to sex work, no matter how old, could be brought up in any compensation hearing. Quote, my record stopped me getting compensation after a very brutal attack that almost killed me. I ended up in hospital after fleeing into the street naked with my lips split into free and my eyebrow torn apart. I wanted to apply for compensation, but I found out that I would be bar would be barred from getting any money because of my criminal record. End quote. Together with women against rape, the ECP has campaigned against this. Discrimination. Two sex workers who courageously brought a private prosecution against a serial attacker who raped them at knife point were individually refused compensation. Then, after protest, they had their reward reduced by 25% due to their quote-unquote unlawful conduct. Even though the way in which they were working did not break the law, the encourage and the courage and strength of character needed to face the man that nearly murdered them in order to ensure he wasn't free to attack others wasn't even considered. Our sister organization, the US Prostitutes Collective, spearheaded a successful campaign to overturn a discriminatory rule that prevented sex workers who were physically or sexually assaulted from receiving money from a special victim compensation fund. Since the policy was changed, sex workers are now eligible from state assistance to pay for medical and related expenses they incur as a result of an assault. Oh so fucking gross.

Speaker 2: 31:20

So family and friends. Two-thirds of the women interviewed described that having cautions or convictions on their record had caused problems in their relationships with friends and family. Those of us who did the interviews found this aspect of the research particularly heartbreaking and enraging. In one woman's case she said that her nieces and nephews know her only as this shadowy person. They will never know her as we do, a clever, resilient, resourceful woman. Instead, she is demeaned and treated like an embarrassment, and at gatherings forced to stand on the sidelines. Others described being completely estranged from most of their family. Quote, I've got siblings that won't see me. When I was first arrested, they called my parents. I had already been kicked out of home, but since there had been absolutely no family connection, my friends don't know. They might know some things, but I don't talk to them. One woman of colour said that racism compounded the way she was treated. Quote, I don't see a lot of my family, and I think it's because they know about my past. I'm estranged from my daughter, her dad and her partner's mum and dad. They knew about that work and everything. I faced some racism from my husband's family. They said he should stick to his own kind and you should stick to yours. He was a white man, so I think it's because of all that my daughter thinks I'm a bad person. Most women had to lie to family members about what they did for a living and found that the burden of this and the fear of being found out very hard. I never told them. You have to hide that part of your life. I think it's kind of sad that you have to do that. Because if my kids saw if my kids saw that I'd be devastated. I'm more scared of that, especially now they're all grown up. Yeah, they wouldn't even know what I was doing when I was a kid. They think I'm normal. Another quote. You feel like you're hiding a part of who you are. You're not showing all of you to everybody. With the stigma attached, you're scared of telling people because you don't know how they'll react. You feel like you're living in deception. All the women interviewed went to great lengths to protect their children and other family members from finding out about their job. Women described how police know this and often threaten them vindictively with telling their family. In some cases, police deliberately informed parents poorly, it seemed, to cause women harm and bring chaos into their lives. One example not from this research was during the mash raids in Soho in 2013. Women gave statements to the ECP to counter police lives about the raids and said, quote, I was handcuffed and pushed to the ground. The policeman shouted at me that if I didn't tell him who owned the flat, he would inform my mother back in Romania of what I do. They only stopped when the maid intervened and told the police that I am an adult and that they have no right to tell my parents anything, but I am living in fear that they will tell my family, quote. The police went to my home and searched it. My daughter was there, and they told my daughter that I work in Sobo and what I do. This was vindictive. There is a long tradition of this particular form of police terrorism. In 1982, the ECP with women against rape and black women for wages of housework occupied the Holy Cross Church and King's Cross for twelve days to protest police illegality and racism. One of the incidents that triggered the occupation was that a woman wanted to plead not guilty after being picked up when she wasn't working. The police went to her mother's house and told her that her daughter was working as a prostitute in King's Cross. The next day, social workers threatened to take her child into care. She pleaded guilty as a result.

Speaker 1: 35:13

The tactics that are used is like Like this whole this whole booklet is just so gross. Child custody. I'm gonna try not cry at this one. Losing your child causes lifelong grief and trauma. Obviously. A number of women interviewed spoke about being treated, uh not being threatened with losing custody of their children. Quote, police came to my house looking for my brother and arrested me on child welfare. I'd been having a hard time and grieving, and the house wasn't as good as sometimes because I was a bit of a hoarder. They searched the house, found a PVC dress and a photo of it with condoms to make it look like they were just lying around. Police called child welfare, and they degraded up a hundred convictions of soliciting that I had got before my daughter was even born. They tried to do me for child neglect, law, legal action for women, wrote to protest, and straightened the house up, and event eventually it was okay. End quote. Two women specifically spoke about how having a record for prostitution reduced your power to fight the authorities or malicious ex-partners, making you quote unquote more compliant or quote vulnerable. So from my personal experience, when I was trying to get child custody of my Wi-Won, my ex tried to use me being a sex worker against me as a form of she can't be a fit mother. Even though they're even though um we were together while I did sex work and everything like that, you know, paying all the bills. But like, yeah, it's not fun. It's really not fun. Um quote, I got into an abusive relationship, I went to the family court and I did get treated badly. I know it was because of my past that I ended up backing down and allowing my son's dad contact. So it affected my case, my confidence, and the consequences. End quote. There's another one. Quote, cautions like mine don't just affect the adults who received the caution, they affect their children. It made me a lot more compliant about allowing my son to be in contact with my ex-partner, who was a dangerous man, because I was so petrified of my children being taken away. I had one solicitor who was positive at first, but once he found out I'd been a sex worker and received a conviction he was not even on my side. When I went to the family court because of my abusive partner, my record was brought up. I had purposely avoided telling my partner about my past because of how he would react. I didn't tell him about my caution, but during the court case, when it was aired out, he found out and used that against me. He ended up getting taken to court again and eventually charged with harassment because he was being so violent and abusive throughout the court case. And one of the things he attacked me with was my past situation. So the record put me in quite a vulnerable legal situation and also a vulnerable position with him where I initially hadn't wanted him to know in order to protect myself. Even when women have amickable amicable agreements with former partners, the fear of how their record for prostitution could be used is always a worry. So with me, um, I was with him for a few years, and throughout that I did sex work. And I didn't think it would come up in child custody, but it did. He brought it up with him saying that I was an unfit mother just because I did this work. So no matter how you think you know somebody, fuck yeah, they can use it against you no matter what. And yeah. Um quote, my son's father knows a little bit of what is happening to me. I think of how this can be used against me by him to take custody of my son. At the moment, I'm not able to take care of my son because I am out of work as well, and I am not able to send him the money I was supposed to send for his education and expenses as well. So I have fear he might take my son. End quote. One woman had to fight for months for help to move for her house to escape her violent former husband, who had threatened to kill her after he got out of prison. Social workers tried to fob her off, and when she persisted, they accused her of being a bad mother. This was before information about her convictions for loitering and soliciting came up. So her fear of how she would be treated then was intensified. Quote: The first social worker was very nice speaking, but after she wasn't good because she called me and she told me to move on my own without my family. But then in the meeting on the phone, she said maybe I wasn't protecting my daughter until Tracy, someone from SNS, spoke and said that that was wrong. End quote. Of course, if women want to foster or adopt a criminal record for prostitution is an insurmountable obstacle, yet a conviction for domestic violence doesn't seem to be a barrier for men to get custody of their children. So, like in the future, I would love to foster, that would be great, but I don't really know if I'm going to be able to, even just with the work I do right now. At one point I was thinking of fostering a child because I was in the foster system, and my foster mother was absolutely fantastic. I had a good experience there, so I thought I'd foster a kid. But my daughter, she is a social worker, and she said, no, you won't get a child because look at your history. I mean, I wouldn't even pass the DBS. End quote. Increasing numbers of mothers are coming to ECP for help and support, having been labelled bad mothers and treated by social services with having their children taken. Mothers doing sex work are accused of loving money and men more than their children. Yeah, I've heard that before. Um promiscuously dressing inappropriately, their children are scrutinized and labelled sexualised. With support, not separation, S, a coalition we are a part of that is based at the Crossroads Women's Centre, London, and campaigns to end the unwarranted separation of children from their mothers. We are supporting mothers who are fighting against sexist, racist, discriminatory social services and family courts, and some mothers are winning. We are also campaigning with S to change the priorities of the family welfare system so that they shift away from separating children from their mothers or primary care primarily carers towards mothers, including those who are sex workers getting financial and other support. One woman described what a difference it made to not have to live with the fear of losing custody. Quote, now I can hold my head high and not worry about people finding out about my work, end quote. Right. So on to our next point, which is housing. I don't have Emily with me right now because we were quite close on time and we've had to do it the next week after. And sadly, Emily couldn't be here today, so you have me, and we shall see how many takes getting through this just by myself will take. I think this is maybe my second or third time doing a podcast alone. So it'll take a minute for me to get into the swing of things, but you guys won't know any of that. So housing. Access to housing is a basic right. Like, let's be honest, it's basic, it's needed. You should be able to have a roof over your head. But women described how cautions and convictions were an obstacle to being able to rent, get a mortgage, and stand up against abusive landlords who used any knowledge of their tenant being involved in sex work, especially if they have a conviction. Now, from my history and my own life, oh gosh, I've been blackmailed by an agency because they found out my job. Uh yeah, it was fun. It was so I own two properties currently. It was kind of a piece of cake for the first one, a little bit. Um the second one was a lot more difficult, um, especially with other factors. If you don't have like a big enough deposit, and if you haven't been working for as long and whatnot, thankfully I have. But even though I've been paying tax for more than three years and working more than five, and you can see like an income, it sadly isn't enough for a mortgage um for the banks to take a look at and be like, oh yeah, it sucks, it's discrimination, let's be honest, but we can't really do that much about it, sadly. It's the same with the banks. In the one of the previous episodes that me and Emily did, we talked about how the banks can close us and everything like that. It is the exact same with the mortgage, they can deny us even when it gets down to like the last bit of paperwork because I've I've been there and they've just went, uh, actually, no. So and and again with abuse of landlords. Um a few years ago, I had a landlord, and it was it was an Airbnb like type situation, and we agreed on rent, and then every now and again he would just up it and up it and up it to the to the point where I was like, no, thank you. I'm gonna literally buy my own place. So I've I've had all of that, and it's crazy to think that I would get blackmailed by an agency, that there are abusive landlords, and mortgage uh banks and whatnot would be like, no, we don't want to deal with you. But it is what happens, sadly, and I that that's me without any cautions or anything like that, and convictions, so my heart really goes out to the sex workers who do have cautions and convictions because it just makes it a million times harder. I missed a little bit of that out. So there was especially if she has a conviction. I thought it was a full stop, but it was a comma. See, you're gonna have to deal with me doing like ADHD rants by myself now. Um, to discriminate and extort more money from her. Again, been there done that is so not nice. So not nice. Um, local authorities often have a policy of not housing people with criminal convictions and women who can be forcibly evicted if they get a conviction after they have been housed. The law makes it illegal to sublet to anybody involved in prostitution or to rent to someone who is habitually doing sex work. Which is like, how are we meant to work then? How so we can't have a body system, we can't rent anywhere and work there at the same time, or just just in general, involved in prostitution or rent to someone who is doing it. Um sorry, how are we meant to live? Like this is a job. Doesn't make any sense. Right? This is a quote now. I was lucky in that I had a council house before I started working in prostitution, and I'm still there. But if I move to a different place, one of the questions on the forms is do you have a record? If you declare it, they can withhold housing options or put you in especially allocated areas, which would be places you didn't want to live in. If you don't declare, they can evict you because you lied. It affects a lot of people. I mean that right there is a load of wrong where if you say you do have a record, they're gonna put you in an allocated spot, like what? That that's not fair at all. One woman said it was enough for her to be a single woman from Romania for landlords to suspect she was a sex worker and treat her badly. Sadly, I can believe that. Quote, all the landlords they see me as a girl and alone and from Romania and always ask me for an extra deposit. They come, they check all the time. End quote. Now, I definitely know that even if she had a boyfriend or a partner, they would be suspected of being their pimp. It's horrible. So the conclusion. This report shows how, quote, prostitutes caution, end quote, along with any other conviction for a prostitution offence, can have a devastating impact on women, not only while we are working in this sex industry, but for our whole lives and in every area of our lives. Participants in this research described how cautions and convictions prevented them from getting another job, trapping them in prostitution sometimes for life. Women spoke about being kept out of better paid jobs and made poorer as a result. Most of the women interviewed were mothers fearful of their children taken away by the state. They were extremely distressed about being less able to protect their children and fight for their rights because their criminal record undermines their power in the face of lawyers, police, and courts, and was used as leverage by hostile and slash or violent ex-partners. They were also scared that their children and other family members would find out about their work and the devastating consequences this could have on family relationships. Police knew this and used it to terrorize mothers they came into contact with. Women also felt diminished in the eyes of their family and friends, and distressed that in order to protect themselves and their children they had to lie to loved ones and what they did for a about what they did for a living. A criminal record meant that women were more likely to be discriminated against when they reported rape and other violence and denied justice. Most were deterred from going to the police either because they knew they would receive bad treatment or because of fear of arrest and for migrant women of deportation. The far-reaching impact of cautions and convictions included being barred from traveling to some countries and denied compensation and insurance. Women are criminalized under the prostitution laws in their symptomatic way. The laws are draconian, I don't know if I've said that right, and give massive discreditinary powers to the police. A recipe for abuse and worse. The authorities have held onto their power to impose criminal records on sex workers against a growing movement for decriminalization. They know the impact of criminalization on women's lives and how it diminishes our economic and social power. Every layer of authority takes advantage of this sector of women made more vulnerable by criminalization. We have to conclude that this is a deliberate policy against women. Me speaking right now, how is it for women? How? Everything in this book that uh I'm reading from, how is it for women? And if you would like to discuss that and come on the podcast, you be my guest. One designed to keep women in poverty by penalizing those who use sex work to escape from it. It is a way of controlling and profiting off women and keeping us in our place. Exploitative employers are no doubt happy to have an army of women who have little or no power to refuse exploitation and abuse in the workplace. They are the bosses with friends in government who make and uphold the laws, the so-called feminist campaigns that press for increased criminalization of sex work are playing into their hands. Criminalization is yet another policy to reduce women's ability to refuse rape and other violence. Women described how they were forced to make more compliant. Women described how they were forced to be more compliant. Is it fanciful to think that rapists in Parliament and in the police urge the policies that put women more at their disposal? The well-known fact that sex workers are one of the groups of vulnerable women targeted by police rapists, bear this out. The criminalization imposed on sex workers by the prostitution laws is part of the criminalization of survival affecting many sectors of people. Working class of colour, migrant young protesters, including climate activists among others. It is therefore imperative that we come together across these dividends to organize and defeat this. The most effective remedy to the harm caused to sex workers by criminalization is the full decriminalization of sex work and ending women's poverty so that we have the economic and social power to refuse prostitution and any other job we consider particularly exploitative. Women and everyone must be able to refuse poverty, exploitation, and violence both from state and from individual men. This is why we demand expunge criminal records which uh institutionalizes women in prostitution. The 2016 Parliamentary Home Affairs Committee conducted an inquiry and recommended that sex workers working on the street and together in premises to be decriminalized and criminal records expunged. Decriminalized sex work. New Zealand decriminalized in 2003 with variable success. Over 90% of sex workers said they had additional employment, legal, health and safety rights. And 64.8% found it easier to refuse clients and 70% said they were more likely to report incidents of violence to the police. Pressure from politicians meant that migrant sex workers were excluded from these protections. Oppose the future criminalisation of sex work by laws that criminalise sex workers' clients. So, that would be the Nordic model. It's went by many different names. We have made another episode about this before in the past because we uh some politicians have tried to get it in Scotland, which no. Sex workers in Scotland would not like the Nordic model. Thank you very much. You did not ask us or anything like that. No. Me personally, I do not like when politicians speak on behalf of sex workers when they have no idea about anything about our lives. And I know there's a bunch of sex workers that feel that way too. So can we not have the Nordic model, please? I would not like to criminalize my clients. It is hard enough here in Scotland where there it is a percentage um poorer than in England. So it is a lot harder to screen clients and actually have clients. So I I would rather we don't do that because then no. I'm sure you would be able to figure out what would happen if we did get an audit model in. Provide resources to enable sex workers to leave prostitution if we choose. Specifically, priority for social housing, debt relief, health services, improved domestic violence services, and obliteration of benefit sanctions. A law to establish a pilot program to provide a basic monthly income to assist women to leave prostitution has been introduced in Hawaii. A pilot project to provide a guarantee care income to single mothers at risk of criminalization in San Francisco. Started in 2024, run by the ECP sister organization US Prostitutes Collective. Why don't we start that here? You know how many mothers would benefit from this? And again, it all comes from poverty and politicians. All that. So why why not start it here? Stop the state and violent fathers from taking custody of our children. No child should be taken from their mother slash primary carer because the family is poor, homeless, or unable to afford clothes, food, or childcare, or because the mother is a sex worker. Decriminalization of sex work is supported by prestigious women-led organizations like the Royal College of Nursing, Women Against Rape, the Human Rights Group such as Amdisty International, Human Rights Watch, ILGA World, the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association, Global Alliance Against Traffic in Women, and global organizations including the World Health Organization, UNAIDS, Amnesty International conducted extensive worldwide consultations and research over a two-year period, resulting in an impressive body of evidence, which was the foundation of its policy on decriminalization. Like, I feel like if you listen to this podcast and you've listened to the previous episodes on why decriminalization is important, what do you have against it, if anything? I would really, really like to hear some people's points, if anybody does have any, of why it shouldn't be decriminalized for the better. So the last part here. This report highlights what academics, politicians, and professionals of every link in have so far ignored the glaring injustice imposed by the prostitution laws on thousands of women, mostly mothers, and therefore our children, who should instead be entitled to protection and support. We hope that it will inspire and strengthen some in high places to become more active against women's polis poverty and criminalization. The English Collective of Prostitutes 2024. So that has been part one and part two of Proceed Without Caution: The Impact of Prostitutes' Cautions and Convictions on Sex Workers' Lives by English Collective of Prostitutes. Now it was my pleasure in going down to London and sharing my friend's story. Um I have trickled it in with what happened with my friend. Basically, everything in this book, um, little bits happened to her and it has affected her massively. And my heart really goes out to her because what what is there to do apart from get on a podcast and say things and protests in the street? We really, really, really need the government to decriminalize us already because we do want to be decriminalized. We do not want to be criminalized for just having a friend um working in the same room with us or just being in the same room. We don't want to be criminalized, our partners don't want to be criminalized either, and our children don't want to be taken away, and we don't want to go to a different country. Like, no. So yeah, this has been Behind the Powder Podcast. I hope you have enjoyed part two. Um, I am Paulson Victoria. Emily Sin will be with us next time, hopefully. Otherwise, you will just have to put up with my lovely voice for eternity. So, yeah, find us on Dark Fans. Um, where else? Dark Fans, Instagram, if you want to see us in our lovely lingerie, definitely Dark Fans. Um, Buzz Sprout are amazing, they have us everywhere on Spotify, Apple. Um, if you want to give us a little tip, support us somehow, share, give reviews, that would be awesome. Um, yeah, if you have also any ideas on what you want us to talk about next, you are more than welcome to. Um, our email is there, and you can just comment on anything. So, yeah. Bye.