Hello and welcome to Behind the Paddle Podcast with Porcelain Victoria. Today we are going to be talking about Carol Lee, who I would say is the mother of sex worker rights. The advocacy that this woman did amazing. Absolutely amazing. She is a writer, an artist, an activist who literally revolutionized the fight for sex workers' rights. By coining the term quote sex work, she reframed the discussion around the industry, moving it away from criminalization and stigma toward labor rights and bodily autonomy. On this episode, we're going to explore her life, activism, and the impact in extreme detail, diving deep into the historical contexts, ideological conflicts, and policy changes that she inevitably influenced. So why does this woman matter? If you didn't just hear the short little bio of what this episode's about, then let me let me highlight a few bits for you. The fight for sex workers' rights is often sidelined in mainstream feminist and labour movements. We see this everywhere, especially social media and in the papers and stuff like that. Caroly bridge the gap between those movements, advocating for decriminalization and harm reduction instead of criminal penalties. She directly influenced international policies, including those of the United Nations and human rights organizations. So, this episode we're going to examine the feminist conflicts over sex work, the political landscape she worked within, and quite simply how her legacy does continue to this day. I feel like when you work in the sex industry, you do it would be nice to learn about it and where it came from and who we do owe our thanks to, really. And Carol Lee, she was born in 1951 in New York, during a time of immense political and social change in the United States. Her activism was shaped by major movements of the time. The civil rights movement, the struggle for racial equality, inspired her early political consciousness. The Vietnam War fueled anti-establishment sentiments, and Lee, like many other young feminists, connected state violence abroad to domestic oppression, influencing her fervor activism. The second wave of feminism, while a feminist movement focused on reproductive rights and workplace discrimination, many feminists viewed sex work as inherently exploitative, setting the stage for Lee's inevitable descent. Now, there still are feminists to this day who do not like sex work and they see it as just trafficking. We go more into this when we talk about revolting prostitutes, the book we currently read every Thursday. Um, we read about 10 pages, and honestly, it is such an eye-opener of a book. It absolutely is. Definitely, of course, recommend people to listen in or pick up the book yourself if you're a fast reader. Because we yeah, I I do 10 pages every week, so so Carol's education was drawn to literature, theatre, activision, seeing them as tools for social change. Which, yeah, why would you not? During her college years, she engaged with radical feminist ideas, but felt alienated by the exclusion of sex workers from feminist discussions. Her artistic background later played a key role in her activision as she used performance art, poetry, and storytelling to challenge the dominant narratives about sex work. Now, unlike the dominant narrative at the time, which framed sex workers as victims, Lee's entry into sex work helped her understand it as labor and challenge its stigma. The economic downturn of 1970s led many women to seek financial independence through sex work, and for Lee, it was almost a means of personal agency. She would later argue that criminalization, not sex work itself. She would later argue that criminalization, not sex work itself, was the true problem, as it left workers vulnerable to violence and police brutality. Again, we go into that when we had did an episode about Perceive About Caution, which was a recent study about police violence against sex workers. And we we did that podcast episode back in February. So if you want to go listen to that, it is a two-parter and it does give the real statistics and real examples of what sex workers today are still going through. The study is mainly in London, I believe, but it does have other statistics out there, but it is UK-based. Lee's autistic skills allowed her to challenge stereotypes up against sex work through satire, spoken word, and performance art. These methods of expression helped her gain a foothold in the early sex worker rights movement, advocating for labour rights, bodily autonomy, and recognition within feminist spaces. And again, we can go to another podcast episode we did about this, which was about the Online Safety Act, which we just covered. This goes hand in hand with the Online Safety Act, where whoever owns that platform and whoever is in charge government-wise as well, determines what you see on that social platform. So, for example, if you were to post satire, spoken word, performance art, anything, basically, it could get censored. The algorithm could like shadow ban you and things like that. So, again, if you want to go and listen to a previous episode, just gonna plug every episode that I can because it seems like most episodes that we do do, you can look back and you can expand more on things. Because it's never, whenever especially you come to a talk like this, an episode, when it's on about women's rights or sex workers or feminist movements, uh thing things like that, people's freedom, then you know it's like a giant spider diagram where you just go off of so many different things that you can go back and forth on it, and you can really explore so many more other things, which yeah, basically, going on a little tangent here, just like yeah, everything can be included, and there's a lot of things which I think you get the idea. It makes sense in my mind, so hopefully in your mind as well, but yeah. In the late 1970s and early 1980s, Lee became involved with groups like Coyote, which stands for Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics, which advocated for decriminalization and labour rights for sex workers in 1978. She famously coined the term sex work at a feminist anti-pornography conference, changing the framework of the conversation from morality to labour rights. So why was this era so crucial? Well, Lee's early years were foundational in shaping the modern sex works right movement. Her rejection of the victim narrative, which we still hear today, her embrace of sex work as legitimate labour. Again, if you want to go back to the banking episode we did ages or literally last year, then you can see how we still aren't recognized as a real job, and even with in the UK HMRC paying taxes, we still aren't recognized as a real job, and we still do have to pay taxes. Christ. But yeah, legitimate Labour and her commitment to advocacy through art and policy reform laid the groundwork for decades of activism. This period set the stage for her pioneering role in sex worker-led organizations and her influence on global decriminalization efforts. The 1970s was a transformative decade for feminism, but also marked deep divisions within the movement on issues related to sex work. Carelli entered this debate at a time when sex workers were largely excluded from feminist discussions, playing a key role in reframing sex work as a labour rights issue rather than a moral or legal one, second wave feminism, and the debate on sex work. The feminist divide, anti-porn versus sex positive feminists. By the 1970s, feminism was split between two camps on sex work, anti-pornography and anti-prostitution feminists, led by figures like Andrea Dwerkin and Catherine McKinnon, who believed sex work was inherently in exploitative and rooted in male domination. Now, from my point of view, there is no male domination in my life being a sex worker. But if you do listen to revolt in prostitutes, then you will know that my voice doesn't matter. Because I am voluntarily doing sex work, it doesn't matter. I don't need to be rescued like quote unquote rescued or anything like that. So my voice doesn't matter. I'm also white and I am privileged. So my voice doesn't matter even more because they can't say that I'm being trafficked or I have a pimp or anything like that, really. There's they don't really care. It's as simple as that, sadly. Um, right now in Scotland we have Ash Regan, who is of the ALBA Party, who recently had a conference meeting where no sex workers were invited at all. Um, and we haven't had a say in the fact that we want decriminalization so badly here in Scotland, here in the UK. And yeah, Ash Regan is currently trying to criminalize us and say that we're trafficked, and it no, we're we're not. If you look up the statistics and everything like that, you will very clearly see that a good majority of us are not getting trafficked. And if there are women that are being trafficked, then it stems from a broader reason. And again, we we can talk I can talk for hours about this, about why there are people in the sex work industry who have no choice in doing it, and how criminalizing it, bringing in this Nordic model in whatever name you want to give it, does not help whatsoever and actually worsens. And it has been proved proven to fail. So if you want to go back um to August 30th, episode 13 of the podcast, you can go listen to Unbiable, Scotland's consultation on the Nordic model, where we do talk about the bill which was which was put forward, and I don't even think we got out of like two pages because it was that much bullshit, basically. Um but yeah, that it's it sadly there's still people in force trying to criminalize us, but yeah, let's let's talk about the 1970s. There was sex positive feminists and pro-sex work advocates, led by figures like Carol Lee and Gail Rubin, who argued that sex work was a legitimate form of labor and that criminalization caused more harm than good. So the women against pornography movement framed all women and sex workers victims, pushing for restrictive laws that ignored the voices of sex workers themselves. Lee, however, rejected the idea that all sex workers were victims, focusing instead on the need for labor protections, not criminalization. And again, I feel like a lot of things come from poverty, migration, a lot of things in the way that the government doesn't focus on the actual people who will be affected. I mean, right now we have the Labour government and half of England are like voting reform. Um, reform or massive uh fascism uh uh political party. It is not good, it is really not good. Um, and some people are actually voting Tory or Labour to try and not get reform in their town, but they they don't want Tory or Labour. Um a lot of people have actually sided with the Green Party because it is the only party right now that has openly said they do want to decriminalize sex work. See, yeah, that's who I'm voting for, just say. So with Lee coining the term sex work, it had a profound impact on legal and social activism, shifting how society viewed sex work and fostering a new framework for discussing workers' rights and human rights. The term helped move the conversation away from criminalizing sex workers to recognizing them as workers, entitled to labour protections. It fostered policy reforms that aim to decriminalize sex work and improve the conditions under which sex workers operated. Major organizations like the UN, Administrate International, and Human Rights Watch began using the term advocating for the decriminalization of sex work and the recognisation of sex workers' rights as human rights. This was a significant shift from viewing sex workers as victims to seeing them as workers deserving of labour protections. Carol Lee's introduction of the term sex work played a pivotal role in challenging harmful policies like the Nordic model. This model criminalizes clients of sex workers, but decriminalizes the workers themselves. Based on the assumption that sex work is inherently harmful, the Nordic model seeks to reduce the demand by penalizing clients, believing this would in turn reduce the prevalence of sex work. Now, I'm gonna refer back to the book, Revolting Prostitutes. In the last episode, we talked about how the government tried to make drugs illegal, right? And how that just makes it even more dangerous because the people who create the drugs might add something into the drugs, so like there's a loophole, and they don't get as told off as much by the police because it's not the actual chemistry ingredients in that specific drug, so it's cut with something different, and that has all come about because we've tried to make it illegal and we don't have facilities to take drugs safely, and of course, it all it all has a massive effect again. And that's okay to take, but the quote junkie on the street corner, that's that's not okay. And there's so many similarities with sex work and how drugs are perceived and seen, and how it's not fair. It is not fair to see something in a different light just because. Because you do it once every so often, or you don't do it in public. The government really does need to listen to sex workers. The government needs to listen to addicts. The government needs to listen to disabled people, people on benefits. The government and the newspapers and the social media, they need to actually like give their heads a shake and understand what is going on in this world. And you can talk about how in the news you see, oh this man allegedly did this, and it's like no, this man murdered this woman. Recently, what what happened recently? Let me just quickly Google it. This has been the hardest find ever. So this wasn't actually the news report which I was trying to find, but I have struggled so much to find the most recent news update about a bunch of white men who were grooming kids. And the only one which I can find right now is the one back in April, which was six men from depraved grooming gang jailed. And this was by the BBC. And their victims were between the ages 13 and 15. At a property which became known as the party house in Boltman between 2016 and 2018. Why the heck wasn't this on the actual news? But when it comes to somebody of colour, somebody where it comes down to where they live, what their religion is, how they look, what their job is, why is it that those people, if you do not fit the norms of being a white privileged person, then with an honest job, a quote, real job, if you do not fit the norm or the narrative of the government or social media, then you're at risk of getting scrutinized so much. And it's so frick it's so unfair. It is so so unfair. The Nordic model was created with the intention of protecting sex workers by criminalizing their clients. However, it inadvertently pushed clients underground, making it harder for sex workers to screen clients, ensure safe working conditions, or negotiate terms. While clients may not face legal consequences under the Nordic model, sex workers still experience criminalization indirectly, facing police harassment and surveillance, particularly migrant workers who are disproportionately targeted. Criminalizing clients forced sex workers into more dangerous, isolated locations. This removed their ability to screen clients properly, compromising their safety and increasing the potential for violence. Now, again, in Revolt and Prostitutes, the book that we read every Thursday and it's out at 7am a new recording. We learn about yeah, in 2005 and 2007, there were sex workers murdered because they were in this location in Ipswich, and Ipswich has a location where you can street walk. There is a managed area, quote unquote, managed area, but you can't have sex or do your services in that area, the actions. You have to leave the quote managed area, you know, the safe space, to then go do have sex or whatever you want to do. And that is where sadly so some women did die because they left that area and they were murdered. So every freaking point to this is proven that the Nordic model does not work, and that sex workers do need a safe space to work together, but sadly we can't do that because if mm a sex worker is working even in the same property as another sex worker, even if it is at a different time, it's still class as a brothel, and you can be criminalized for that, even if it's working for safety or splitting the bills. You know, there's a there's a few frickin' positives about sharing a space with somebody. And in the book, it's absolutely spot on with the views and how the government can actually help us. I'm in a bit of a ranty mood today. So Lee's advocacy critiqued the Nordic model by highlighting how it led to increased harm for sex workers. Instead, she championed the New Zealand model, which decriminalized sex workers entirely, protecting the rights of workers and ensuring workplace safety. Her advocacy was instrumental in inspiring international movements towards decriminalization. Countries like New Zealand, Australia, and Canada have either fully or partially decriminalized sex work, citing improved safety and conditions. As more sex worker-led organisations challenge governments maintaining criminalization policies, global momentum for decriminalisation grows. I mean as I said in Scotland we are fighting for decriminalization here right now. In the 1970s and 80s were critical for sex workers' rights, but these decades were also marked by harsh criminalization, violence, and sympathetic discrimination. During this time, Carol Lee played an essential role in pushing for decriminalization and labour rights, rather than continuing legal oppression. At this time, sex work was criminalized globally. This legal environment left sex workers with denied labour rights. Sex workers lacked workspace protections and ability to organize. They were vulnerable to police brutality. They faced extortion and physical abuse from law enforcement, as well as discrimination in the legal system. They were denied legal protection against abuse. Sex workers were often refused legal assistance or justice when they were victims of violence, as many saw them as unrapeable. This fuels me with so much anger because I have done quite a few things in work where somebody stealthed me and stealthing is now you can get prosecuted for it, I believe. Where you take off the condom during sex without the knowledge or consent of the person you're having sex with. And I've also had people think they can choke me or spit on me or call me names just because they pay me. And this is all without my consent. With the whole unrapeable with the book, there has been police officers even saying that they don't take reports seriously from sex workers because it's our job. It's not our job to get abused. Simple as that. Police officers frequently targeted sex workers for arrests and extortion, including sexual violence. Cases like the New York quote trick task force, where officers sexually assaulted workers were notorious. That we can talk about in another podcast episode. Ugh no. Horrible, horrible, horrible. Women, especially black and Latina sex workers, were disproportionately arrested and imprisoned, facing long sentences despite non-violent offences. Incarceration led to loss of housing, child custody, and future employment. Sex workers who were victims of violence were often refused help by the police or courts, reinforcing a legal system that did not see violence against them as a crime. The rise of coyote and early organizing. The 1970s marked the beginning of organized sex work activision with the creation of Coyote. Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics in 1973. Founded by Margot St. James, Coyote was the first sex worker-led organization in the US pushing for decriminalization, better public education on sex workers' rights, and end to police harassment. Coyote inspired similar organizations across Europe and Canada. Lee joined Coyote in the late 1970s and used her activision and performance art background to advocate for change. She criticized partial criminalization targeting clients for still leaving sex workers vulnerable to violence and instability. Now we've talked about Carol Lee being an activist, but she wasn't just that. She was also an artist, writer, and performer who used creative expression to educate and challenge the stigma around sex work. So, how did she do that? Lee created Scarlet Harlot, a satire character used to challenge stereotypes about sex workers, and exposed the hypocrisy of laws that criminalize sex work while profiting from fines. Yes, because it makes so much sense that two sex workers go to court for brothel keeping working together, and you then want to take money from them. Like you want to talk about how you're helping sex workers, but then you fine us for doing our jobs and doing it safely and all this stuff. Like it doesn't make any sense, and it's so messed up. A collection that became a cornerstone for sex worker rights activists. In 1980s, Carol Lee co-founded Base One, Bay Area Sex Worker Advocacy Network, focusing on legal advocacy and harm reduction strategies. Base One fought against discriminatory laws and documented police harassment, offering legal workshops and resources to support sex workers' rights. In 1980s, HIV AIDS crisis disproportionately affected sex workers, particularly in marginalized communities, and Lee pushed for harm reduction policies such as needle exchange programs, safe working conditions, and condom distribution. You know, the usual like things you would want. But it does make sense when you look deeper and deeper into it. Because the big people profit fighting back against laws and policies. Opposing the Nordic model, Lee was vogue in her opposition to the Nordic model, which criminalized clients but left workers vulnerable. Advocating for the New Zealand model. Lee supported New Zealand's 2003 Prostitution Reform Act, which fully decriminalized sex work and improved working conditions. Cara Lee's legacy continues today, influencing global sex workers' rights movements. The continued fight for decriminalisation, safety and labour rights stand as a testament to her contributions, and sex worker rights groups continue her work with growing momentum. I feel like if it was easier to get into New Zealand or Australia, I would, honestly, because being recognised that your job is a job is it it shouldn't be seen as something beautiful. It shouldn't be seen as something that we're lucky to have or we should fight for because there shouldn't be any need to fight for it in the first place. It is a job. So what needs to change in legislation? Carol Lee's tireless work has contributed to major shifts in how sex workers' rights are viewed, but there's very much still work to be done. The current global legal landscape remains harmful to sex workers. Despite some progress, the following are key policy areas that need change to truly honour Carole Lee's vision and all the other activists that helped pave the way for the sex workers of today. We need full decriminalization. Why? Decriminalization is the fundamental step in ensuring sex workers' safety, dignity, and access to rights. Unlike legalization, which creates strict regulations, which is what we have here in the UK, where basically you can't do anything. You have to work alone. You can't like advertise really. Um yeah, you can't you can't work with somebody, you have to be alone in your own space. And it is so scary. But I love my job. But also, my voice doesn't matter. As I've previously said. I can try and advocate, which I'm absolutely doing um a good multitude of ways, but when it comes to politicians, they don't really listen that much, which is really sad, honestly. Decriminalisation removes criminal penalties for both selling and buying sex, treating it as a legitimate form of labour. Decriminalisation leads to a reduction in police violence, improved access to health care, and better working conditions for sex workers. This framework recognizes sex work as a labour issue, not a criminal one. The evidence for decriminalization is well a 2018 Lancet study revealed that decriminalization could decrease HIV infections among sex workers by 33 to 46%. New Zealand's decriminalization law has been particularly successful with 70% reduction in violence against sex workers from clients. I definitely think that would help. Absolutely. Here. Yeah. It's as simple as that, just like other sex workers who don't screen their clients. If you're in need of money or paying the bills, then you sometimes have to take a client who you've never seen before or isn't as nice to you as others because you need the money. So yeah, I took on this client and he was actually a wanted felon. And I felt that I couldn't actually call the police because I've just had really bad interactions with the police in the past, which I will talk about at some point. Um but yeah, thankfully I called Crime Stoppers, which is amazing, you can do it anonymously, and I reported him and things like that. But it is a real scare for us to talk to the police and to see clients when they do shit like this, where they threaten you, where they threaten your life, where they threaten where you work or your home and all that. It's it's the reality of sex work. So in the US, they actually have Sester and Foster, something we have picked up on on previous episodes. Of the podcast. Cesta and Foster is the Stop Enabling Sex Traffickers Act and Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act were enacted in 2018 with the intention of curbing trafficking. But their real-world effects have been devastating. Instead of targeting traffickers, these laws increase the risk faced by sex workers, particularly by shutting down online platforms where many sex workers found safety, visibility, and clients. Without these online spaces, many workers were pushed into more dangerous in-person work, increasing their exposure to violence, exploitation, and arrest. Now we did talk about Sesta and Foster on the previous podcast episodes on the Online Safety Act. We compared the UK's Online Safety Act to CESTA and Foster, and how different they are and similar, and how they have an impact. Not a very good impact, honestly. Organisations such as Hacking / Hustling and the Woodhull Freedom Foundation are spearheading the campaign to repel Cester and Foster, arguing that the laws infringe on First Amendment rights while increasing harm to sex workers, which clearly it is infringing on First Amendment rights. Like I love the US, I really do. I l I love how uh that sarcasm. I I love how they deal with things. They can't take away guns, but they can take away online rights. Like it make it make sense. Do you want porn online or do you want school shootings and they take away porn? Like, like come on, please make it make sense. So anti-trafficking laws that differentiate between trafficking and consensual work. The current problems, many anti-trafficking laws are overly broad and conflate consensual sex work with human trafficking. This leads to wrongful arrests, deportations, and harmful raids that target migrant sex workers instead of helping victims of trafficking. Like, oh my god. If you find somebody that is being trafficked and you know a raid happens and stuff, and the police are like, oh, because you're being trafficked, we're not gonna help you, we're just gonna send you back to the country you most likely fled from. Like, what? No! What governments so the solution to this would be governments need to distinguish clearly between consensual work and trafficking, ensuring that policies target actual traffickers and protect the workers. This includes shifting funding from criminal enforcement to harm reduction strategies like housing, health care, and support services. Just help the people. And recently on my Instagram and in the book Revolt and Prostitutes, we talk about migration and immigr and immigrants. And we talk about how coming into a country isn't illegal, it is to do with the actions and not the actual person themselves. So like the person isn't a quote illegal immigrant, there is no illegal part of being a person, it's the act itself. And I feel like if you're listening to the podcast, you have similar views in the way of if you want to flee a country or if you want to move to a different country for whatever reason, do so. Absolutely do so. You should be welcomed into a country you think is gonna do you better. Financial and labour protections for sex workers, why why are they necessary? Well, sex work remains criminalized in many jurisdictions, leading to decriminalization, leading to discrimination in the financial sector. Banks and payment processes often refuse to work with sex workers, making it difficult to conduct business or access financial services. Like, hi, I have been denied bank accounts, I've been denied mortgages, um, I've had my banks closed down before and money taken away, hi PayPal, and not being able to get that money. All because of my job, being a sex worker. Sex work should be recognized as a legitimate labour, granting workers with the same protections as those in any other profession. This includes access to unemployment benefits, health care, and workplace rights. Legal recognition of sex worker unions such as those seen in Argentina and Germany would provide crucial support. So how can listeners, you guys, support sex workers' rights? Well, it's quite simple. You can support organisations led by sex workers, such as SWOP, Sex Workers Outreach Project, the Red Umbrella Fund, and the Global Network of Sex Work Projects, NSWP, play a crucial role in advocating for sex worker rights. I know that recently in Scotland, a few years ago, there was a sex worker group which closed down because they didn't have any funding or anything like that, and it was a struggle, which obviously I think people can relate to when they don't have any funding or any actual help when it comes to other people than sex workers. Um, I would definitely suggest looking your area to see if there are any organizations led by sex workers. We are absolutely growing by the minute, and it's beautiful. It is absolutely beautiful to see. One of the big UK organizations, sex worker organizations, is the English Collective of Prostitutes, ECP. Absolutely amazing. They actually did the study for Proceed Without Caution, which talks about police brutality and a bunch of a whole bunch of other stuff where it comes down to poverty. A lot of other stuff. It's it's a whole bag to unload, trust me. But they are London-based, but they do work nationally, and I know they do have a sister organization, I believe, in the US. Um, we can absolutely talk more about ECP at some point. We have National Orchley Mugs, which is UK-wide. They were founded in 2012, and their focus is protecting sex workers from violence by sharing intelligence about dangerous individuals. And it is that and client eye, which is another one which are the only ones which I know where you can instantly get information on an email, phone number, details basically. And of course, you do have to prove you are a sex worker for this. There is Swarm, Sex Worker Advocacy and Resistance Movement, Mutual Aid, they want decriminalization, they obviously want to challenge the stigma, and they support trans and migrant workers. Absolutely amazing people. There was Scott Pep, which I actually tried to contact them, but I never ever got any reply, and their phone lines weren't operating or anything like that. So they're the ones who I don't think are actually open anymore at all, sadly. Which it sucks, it sucks to see. We have Basis Yorkshire, which focus on supporting women in the sex industry, including indoor and street-based workers, young people who are exploited through sexual violence as well. We have in Glasgow Umbrella Lane, which they are helping with Decrim Scotland. Amazing, amazing. So yeah, and then the second point is one of the most powerful tools in the fight for sex worker rights is education. This is the reason, one of the big reasons why we have this podcast. We all need to share research supporting decriminalization and push back against harmful stereotypes that perpetuate stigma. So, of course, we can all advocate for policy changes, support legislative changes by contacting lawmakers and demanding the repeal of CESTER, Foster, any bill that comes in, and the passage of decriminalization laws. Engaging in grassroots advocacy can push these issues into the spotlight. Like, message your MPs, give them an email, and just be like, hey, please can you help the sex workers by decriminalization? On the ECP website, you can actually to your MP. I'm sure there's a few more places where you'll be able to do it as well, where they just have um they ask you for the postcode, and then it just takes you to the MP's email, and some of them have a pre-written email that you can just send right away. And you can be also anonymous doing this as well. And of course, you can support sex workers personally, support them by listening to their experiences, amplifying their voices, and advocating for their rights. And if you do want to donate or volunteer, that honestly can make such a significant impact. So, our final thoughts on this are Carolee's vision of a world where sex workers are treated with dignity, respect, and fairness continues to inspire. Her work was not just about changing laws, it was about changing how society views sex work itself. Until sex workers are recognized as workers and not criminalized, her fight, our fight, is not over. So let's carry forward her legacy by continuing the push for decriminalization, harm reduction, and labour protection. I'd also like to add that in Carol's later years, like her activision did not stop. Even after decades of advocacy, Carol Lee remained an active and influential voice in sex worker rights movements worldwide. In the 2000s, she expanded her focus to international policy, digital activision, and intersectional organizing, ensuring that sex workers were recognized as legitimate labourers under human rights framework. She collaborated with sex workers' rights organizations in Europe, Asia, and Latin America supporting decriminalization models similar to New Zealand's 2003 Prostitution Reform Act. She worked with Annasty International, which in 2016 formally adopted a policy supporting the full decriminalization of sex work, a landmark victory for global advocacy. She advised the United Nations on human rights policies related to sex work, advocating four frameworks that clearly distinguish consensual sex work from human trafficking. Now this is a little quote from Carol Lee herself. If we want real solutions to trafficking, we need to stop criminalizing the people most vulnerable to exploitation. The way to protect sex workers is to give them rights, not take them away. Even in Carol's last months, she was involved in advocacy against financial discrimination, arguing that sex workers should have access to banking, housing, and healthcare without prejudice. Sadly, Carol Lee did pass in 2022. But as we've said, she lives on, and we're gonna carry on supporting sex workers. And hopefully this episode has reminded you and taught you if you're not familiar with sex workers, or if you're actually on the opposite side of wanting criminalization, that sex workers' rights are human rights until all sex workers are safe, protected, and free from criminalization, we're not gonna stop. The fight is going to continue for us to actually have our freedom. And yeah, this has been the life of Carol Lee. I hope you've enjoyed this episode of Behind the Paddle Podcast. Because I I feel like whenever I talk about sex work, I do get really ramped up because it to me it's just common sense where why can't everybody just be happy and respect each other and what they want to do with their bodies? And there's a lot of things to do with that, like trafficking and migrants and a a lot more to unpack. But can we not live in a society where we're okay with people? But yeah, um, I have talked for so long now, I feel. So this has been Panda Pada Podcast for me, Post and Victoria. If you don't know a little bit about me, I've been a sex worker for eight years now, legally. I will write a book at some point about my life, I swear. Um, it's a roller coaster, trust me. And yeah, if you want to see the spicier version, or if you want to donate or anything like that, or support the podcast, then there's dark fans, many vids. Um, or you could just donate in general. It would be on our links page. And yeah, if you have any suggestions on what you would like to hear next, I do believe I will actually be doing a BDSM episode on the next Monday because I I I do domination every other day basically, and I feel like I've neglected it from the podcast severely. So that is what we shall be doing. We're gonna be talking about colouring and how important colouring can be to people, and it is very important to me, honestly, and this is gonna sound very big, but I do see colouring as like marriage in some ways, and we're gonna unpack that in a new episode. So, yeah, thank you so much for listening, guys. I hope you have a wonderful week, and I hope you listen in to Revolting Prostitutes as well. So, yeah. Bye.