Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello and welcome back to Behind the Pad podcast with me, folsom Victoria. So we're gonna continue reading Revolt and Prostitutes. If you hear any little piggy snorts then that's because I'm downstairs. I have just came off of doing a Zoom interview with somebody in a future podcast episode. I'm very excited and I'm downstairs in the room and my Frenchie is here. So if you hear any dog noises, little piggy noises, then it is him and I do apologize. So, yeah, revolting prostitutes with molly smith and juno mac.

Speaker 1: 0:50

How does it work? The demand? In the blueprints of the ideal nordic model, there are four key priorities the buyer, the seller, quote, exit services and third parties, ie traffickers or pimps. Arguably, the strongest priority of the nordic model, as it's envisioned on paper, is to go after the man who pays for sex, in other words, end demand. It's this intention, the focus on clients, that distinguishes this legal model from other forms of criminalization, even those which also criminalize the purchase of sex, as in Kenya or South Africa. Elsewhere, the criminalization of the client takes an ideological backseat to the persecution of the sex worker, even in the United States, where the police make relatively concert efforts to arrest clients for instance carrying out john stings, for instance, carrying out quote john stings with female undercover officers. Only 10 of overall prostitution arrests are of clients. In the nordic vision of prostitution law, arresting clients is the whole point, the main course, not the side dish. In practice, the targets of the Nordic model are less clear-cut, as this chapter will show. As we said at the outset, we are concerned about people who sell sex, about how laws and policies around sex work affect them and how to reduce harm to them. So let's examine what happens to people who sell sex when their clients are criminalized.

Speaker 1: 2:59

Think of a woman working on the street. She might have expected to see three or four clients in a couple of hours and head home with the money she needed before one in the morning. But with her clients now criminalised, the stroll is quieter. Maybe instead of seeing her normal two or three before midnight, she's not yet seen anymore. Now suppose someone then approaches her at one in the morning, someone who seems coked up and aggressive or who is driving a car with a number plate. She was warned by other workers to avoid. She needs to earn enough money to put food on the table. Her lack of clients so far gives her less power to refuse a man she might otherwise turn down. He might be scared of being seen, which will oblige her to help him stay hidden, perhaps by driving into a darkened park after a quick exchange on the street. Maybe he offers her half her usual rate and refuses to use a condom. If she had already made most of the money she needed tonight, she could insist on business on her own terms or turn him down completely. But the streets are dead and it seems like she can either say yes to him or go home with nothing after hours in the cold, maybe trying to make up the shortfall. She stays out working much later than usual and has to walk home through snowy, deserted streets at five o'clock. This isn't the only effect on her.

Speaker 1: 4:51

Think about who is still paying for sex. A man who may otherwise have wanted to pay for sex and then go home to his partner and his job might well decide that he now has too much to lose. To be arrested for paying for sex might disgrace him at work and break up his marriage. It seems more sensible to stay home, but there are plenty of men who have less to lose than that. Plenty of men who have less to lose than that. Perhaps he never intended to pay for sex, but was always planning to Attack or rob a sex worker, which means breaking pre-existing laws. So why worry about the possibility of a conviction for purchasing sex? Perhaps an arrest for paying for sex won't disgrace him at work? He already has multiple convictions for violence against his ex-wife and his boss doesn't care. The clients who are deterred are disproportionately the quote nicer clients, or at least those with something to lose. The clients who remain are disproportionately likely to be impulsive, drunk or violent. Those with less to lose. Pro-nordic model politician rhoda grant even described this dynamic while advocating for its introduction in scotland, saying, quote while those who currently break the law, ie violent abusers, will not see the criminalization of the purchase of sex as a deterrent, many others will. Thinking of sex workers always intrinsically violent of course hides the difference between a respectful client and an abusive one.

Speaker 1: 6:58

Everywhere in the world, regardless of the legal model, street-based sex workers use a familiar range of safety strategies. For example, they might work together with a couple of friends. They might take time to assess a client before getting into his car. They might have a friend write down his car's number plate to signal to him that someone will know who she's with. How does the criminalization of clients shape or change these safety strategies?

Speaker 1: 7:33

Working with a group of friends on the street makes you more visible to the police, which isn't something you can risk if you're hoping to make money. If you're too obviously visible as sex workers, even if you're not worried that you yourself will be arrested, clients won't want to risk approaching you for fear that they will be arrested Again to get the client's money. You often have to cater to his need for safety from arrest by working alone rather than a group. As for having a conversation before getting into his car, that is the time when he is most visible to the police as a client and therefore he will be keen to speed that process up. Instead of having a conversation about services, prices and condom use while still on the street, he'll just ask you to hop into his car and have that conversation while you're already speeding away, because you need to keep his custom in order to get the money you need. You say yes, but that means you have no chance to reach a verbal agreement about prices and condoms before getting in the car, let alone assess his demeanor or even establish whether he has a friend hiding in the back seat. These effects compound each other. The sex worker is poorer, so she feels more pressure to accept a client she might otherwise reject. She works later and alone. The nicer clients have stayed away, while the more impulsive or unpredictable clients remain and she has less time to assess him.

Speaker 1: 9:33

In Norway, sylvia, a migrant woman who works on the street, told a reporter quote Before we did not go far with the customer, we would go to a car park nearby, but now the customer wants to go somewhere isolated because they are afraid I don't like it. There is more risk that something bad happens. End quote. In Sweden, annabelle, a street-based worker, says quote, you were still able to get clients after the law, but you had to stand that much longer. End quote. When vancouver tried criminalizing clients, researchers asked sex workers what the effects were. Violet, a street-based worker there, said quote, while they're going around chasing johns away from pulling up beside you, I have to stay out for longer, whereas if we weren't harassed we would be able to be more choosy as to where we get in, who we get in with. You know what I mean. Because of being so cold and being harassed, I get into a car where I normally wouldn't have. End quote, wouldn't have end quote the swedish and norwegian government's own reports corroborate these sex workers words.

Speaker 1: 11:05

The swedish national board of health and welfare, for instance, found that quote fear among clients make it harder to use safe meeting places. Meeting places have become more out of the way, such as wooded areas, isolated stairwells and office premises where clients do not risk discovery. A 2004 report by the Norwegian Ministry of Justice and Public Secretary found that the Swedish street prostitutes experience a tougher time. They are more frequently exposed to dangerous clients, while the legitimate clients are afraid of being arrested. Being arrested, they have left time to assess the client, as the deal takes place very hurriedly due to fear on the part of the client. Those hit hardest by those worsening conditions are, as always, the most precarious. This is particularly true of homeless street-based sex workers. The ministry of justice report found that quote more abuse takes place than previously, as the women cannot afford to say no to their clients they have their doubts about and summarize the effects of the law. Thus, for those forced to work on the street, life has become much harder. The law on the purchase of sex has made working as a prostitute harder and more dangerous.

Speaker 1: 12:54

A social worker in Marmo dangerous. A social worker in Marmo captures how these dynamics play out particularly strongly for sex workers with substance dependencies, noting that there are fewer clients on the streets and the women still need the money to get the heroin. So the customers are able to offer less money for more no condom, for example and if they really do need the money and they have been standing there the whole night and they need their fix then maybe you say yes. For an indoor worker, the most obvious and easiest way for the police to find her clients is by watching her. After all, these men are only detectable as clients when they visit the flat of someone the police think is a sex worker. Clients do not go about their ordinary lives with the word punter emblazoned on their foreheads. Like her colleague on the street, an indoor sex worker needs to sell sex much more than her clients needs, much more than her client quote needs to buy it.

Speaker 1: 14:16

He is indulging in a spot of recreation. She is paying her rent. This means that she is pushed to change her way of working in order to keep his custom. She might normally prefer to see clients in her own flat, where she is on her own turf. She can even have a friend quietly looking out for her in the next room. But for the client, going to a sex worker's flat is when he is most at risk of arrest, so he asks her to visit him instead in his flat or in a hotel room he has rented. Here she is walking into an unfamiliar space. A Norwegian government reporter states that as a result of the law quote the risk of violence has increased for those who no longer work on the streets. When making a home visit, the prostitute does not know what she is coming to. Instead of her friend quietly scrolling on her phone in the next room of her flat and keeping an ear out in case she needs back up backup, she is faced with a space where the client may, for all she knows, have the rest of his drunk stag party hiding in the bathroom waiting for the door to click shut behind her.

Speaker 1: 15:56

How do indoor sex workers try to stay safe? Many attempt to screen clients by asking them for their real names or refusing to take calls from hidden numbers. This means that if the client turns aggressive during the booking, the worker can at least threaten to take his name or phone number to the police. But if a client is criminalized, he may be fearful of the police searching a worker's phone or apartment and identifying him. As a result, he refuses to take, he refuses to give basic screening information like his real name, and switches the calling from a hidden number. A man who wants to carry out an assault or robbery will know he can arrange a meeting with a sex worker and be virtually untraceable. The criminalization of clients gives him leverage to refuse to make himself identifiable. In Ireland, sex worker safety organization Ugly Mugs says it received 1,635 reports from sex workers with concerns about violent and abusive clients in the five months following the sex purchase ban in 2017, a 61% increase on the same period in 2016.

Speaker 1: 17:39

People are not willing to. People are not willing to divulge their details, said the late and much missed sex worker and activist, laura lee, of the introduction of the law in Northern Ireland. Everyone suddenly became John as before. All these effects work in combination. Some clients will stay away, making a sex worker less able to refuse. Those who remain able to refuse those who remain, even if they seem creepy, aggressive or try to bargain her down on money or boundaries. This should be easy to understand. Anyone whose work depends on getting clients, not just sex workers, will know that when you have fewer clients than you expected, you're in a weaker position to turn down clients who are less than ideal maybe they're personally abrasive or asking for work outside your skill set or not renumerating you fairly, there's a stronger push towards nonetheless accepting them. If you're broke to try to make up the income she's losing, a sex worker might offer new services, perhaps sex without a condom. A norwegian government evaluation of the law found that prices are lower now than before the introduction of the ban. More traveling, more advertising and somewhat lower prices show that the competition is tougher and the demand is lower nowadays. That the competition is tougher and the demand is lower nowadays. Men and women in prostitution need to work harder now in order to secure previous income levels. Pause for a minute and emphasise with what quote. Competition is tougher. Men and women in prostitution need to work harder now Means for people who sell sex.

Speaker 1: 20:07

Those who advocate for the Nordic model are correct that the client benefits from a huge power imbalance. What they miss is that the client criminalization worsens this power imbalance. This can seem surprising. As human rights lawyer Wendy Leon writes, the criminalization of only one party to a transaction might intuitively be expected to benefit the other party. However, this overlooks that crucial fact, which cannot be repeated enough, that the sex worker needs to sell sex much more than the client needs to buy it. This asymmetry of need is essential to understanding the actual impact of the Nordic model, and it's an effect that intensifies the more precarious the worker is. Think about how desperately a worker might cater to a client if her rent is late or if she's about to go into opioid withdrawal. She'll take on the burden of his need for safety from arrest, which will entail compromising any safety strategies she might otherwise seek to deploy. After all, he is safer from arrest when he is more anonymous and when their rendezvous is more clandestine. Wendy Leon writes that because of this quote need imbalance, the seller can ill afford to seek to extract advantages from the buyer's criminalized status. It is entirely understandable, even predictable, that a sex worker in already desperate straits would negotiate with a client on his terms if the only practical alternative is losing the client entirely. She needs his custom more than he needs to buy sex right.

Speaker 1: 22:16

The norwegian government itself acknowledges that the situation for sex workers is now a quote buyer's market. All of this is inherent to the approach of quote ending demand, which takes much of its basis from simple economics. The idea is that a reduction in demand will lead to a quote correction in the market whereby, because fewer people want to pay for sex, fewer people people will sell it. What this smooth story misses is that the first thing which happens when you reduce demand on any product or service is that the price at which it can be sold goes down and sellers desperately compete to retain a share of a shrinking market. In other words, the law is working how it is intended to work when it makes people who sell sex poorer and more precarious. Anne Martin, head of Sweden's anti-trafficking unit, admitted this quote. I think of course, the law has negative consequences for women in prostitution, but that's also some of the effect that we want to achieve with the law.

Speaker 1: 23:47

It shouldn't be as easy as it was before to go out and sell sex. There is no quote end demand that does not make people who sell sex poorer, and making people poorer reduces their power in interactions with clients. Advocates of the Nordic model are correct that most people go into sex work with few or no other options. That lack of options is one of the things that makes reducing demand so harmful when people have few or no other options. They cannot easily quote exit the sex industry because conditions become harsher.

Speaker 1: 24:36

Because conditions become harsher, critics of the sex industry are sometimes able to recognise this problem in other contexts. Prominent UK anti-prostitution feminist, kat Banyard, notes that one-way strip club managers managers decrease dancers power with clients is by ensuring that the club is always filled with dancers quote so there's always heavy competition for custom. But banyard strikingly fails to recognize that the same dynamic plays out if you reduce the number of clients willing to pay for sex. As always, this harms more precarious workers worse. If someone is earning 25 000 a year and their income drops, they might struggle to save or have to move to a cheaper flat, but they'll probably have enough of a buffer to get by. But if someone is earning, say, seven thousand a year, a reduction in their income might push them into crisis. Maybe that means homelessness or avoiding homelessness by moving back in with a violent ex. Even if they go to a support service which we'll come to in more detail in a moment and ask for help with leaving prostitution, that process can take months. That process can take months. During those months they will be struggling even harder to survive in the set survive in a sex industry that is now a quote buyer's market.

Speaker 1: 26:26

Getting close to the poverty line often forces people who sell sex to consider getting the help of a pimp, partner agent or a manager. If you have little to no income, splitting half the money from future work is an improvement on no money at all. This is something we've seen in our own communities. In times of low business, such as the summer holidays or after christmas, sex workers who are scared of going hungry offer to split the profits from any bookings a fellow worker can send their way. This simple dynamic is someone's relative Poverty versus the skills or connections of their acquaintance shows how a third party can benefit when businesses fin on the ground.

Speaker 1: 27:26

None of this is to say that we think men who pay for sex or who profiteer from another's prostitution are good or that they have a quote right to buy sex. That should be quote protected, an accusation often leveled at sex workers by proponents of the nordic model. It is simply to say that if you want to reduce prostitution, you need to find a way to do that which doesn't involve making already profoundly marginalized people more precarious. Advocates of quote ending demand tend to want it both ways. They cite women's poverty as a key driver of the sex industry, but treat poverty as trivial when it comes to thinking about the impact of their own policy. Quote solutions. One anti-prostitution organization, the women's support project, right in support of the nordic model.

Speaker 1: 28:39

Quote if men were not prepared to buy sex, then prostitution would not work as a survival behavior. When you enact a policy that makes a survival behaviour quote not work anymore, some of the people using it to attempt to survive may no longer survive. A fictional sex worker made up by a police officer whose job is enforcing the sex buyer law, saying, quote the nordic model is bad for business, but good for my safety. End quote. This is a notion that only rings true if you don't realize that, as we've, as we've seen above, quote business and quote safety cannot be separated from marginalized people.

Speaker 1: 29:43

Being poorer makes sex workers less safe. This is something the feminist movement already understands. It is clear, for example, that the efforts of austerity in the uk, which has disproportionately fallen on women, has made it less safe for women to leave abusive relationships. A worker in women's aid told a reporter at the moment, the big issues for women using our services are around austerity, welfare reform and the housing crisis. Women faced with the choice of going into bed and breakfast, casual nightly accommodation with children may feel that, although their current circumstances are awful, they can at least cook for their child at home. When women have less access to resources, they are more vulnerable to violent men.

Speaker 1: 30:44

This isn't an endorsement of the sex industry. We could be talking about any kind of work disproportionately done by marginalised people. It is universally true that supply taking it away will not help the person who is using it to try to survive. People turn to the sex industry as a way of securing the resources they need, and any policy which makes it harder for them to do that will make them less safe, both within the sex industry and in their relationships elsewhere. So that is where we're going to end. We've ended on page 151. It does go into another little chapter, so we'll get on with that next week. But yeah, this has been behind the battle podcast with me, pulsar Victoria. Thank you so much for listening. This has been revolting prostitutes. You can listen to us on spotify, apple and, of course, do not forget to leave us a review. That is very much appreciated. And yeah, goodbye for now. Bye.