Speaker 1: 0:00

Right, hello and welcome to Behind the Paddle podcast. Today is a lovely little special episode. I'm very, very happy we have here Christine Denning and she's going to explain so much and it's going to be so fun. So much. And it's going to be so fun and basically the episode is going to be geared around power periods, something which we have covered in a good few episodes, but now we have somebody, I would like to say, more of a professional about it than myself. So, christine, if you want to introduce yourself, that would be great thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2: 0:51

I yes, I'm Christine Gardening and I ended up in this space by accident, but now I'm obsessed because I did not realize that period poverty was something affecting girls and women in every country, including America and England, as well as across the continent of Africa, where I predominantly work, and so I care deeply about justice, and so when I realized that this issue is affecting 500 million menstruators every month, and I realized the menstrual cup could literally solve it, I decided to pivot my entire work, and now this is what I'm solely focused on I want to talk about the issue, I want to talk about the solution, and then I want to see the solution enacted so that people can start solving something else.

Speaker 1: 1:48

Yeah, so we're going to go through bit by bit and put it all down and I'm so excited.

Speaker 2: 1:56

Me too, thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:57

So what would you say? Is your earliest memory of understanding what a period was?

Speaker 2: 2:08

memory of understanding what a period was. Yeah, so I grew up I was ninth of 10 kids and we grew up in a generation, or at least in my home, where we didn't talk about things like this. So I remember only knowing about it from maybe a little bit from sixth grade health education, from maybe a little bit from sixth grade health education, but that's very basic. And I remember I had a neighbor, denise, and she was older than I was and so anything I learned about it would have come from her. So I would say, perhaps the little bit you learn in sixth grade, and then the actual questions you have, or I had, would have been answered when I was probably in maybe eighth or ninth grade from a neighbor.

Speaker 1: 2:53

So what? So what ages are eighth and ninth grade exactly?

Speaker 2: 3:01

Oh, 16. Okay, I'd say 15, 16. Yeah, I know older, too old, because you know, I think in sixth grade is when you first, when I first started learning about you know the school tells you, but I think at that point you're awkward, they don't tell you too much, it's not a space to ask questions and so, and I wasn't menstruating in sixth grade, so it didn't really impact me. And then my guess is that by the time I was maybe 15 is when I would start menstruating and by the time I was asking actually good questions to a trusted neighbor, I was 16.

Speaker 1: 3:49

oh, wow, okay, so at least the school in England which I went to we it was year 12? No, something like that, and we were. It was the last year of primary school, no high school, so so 12, oh gosh.

Speaker 2: 4:04

You would have been 17, 18.

Speaker 1: 4:06

I know it's crazy, because when I remember distinctively the sex ed, we had like one day to talk about sex ed, and in sex ed they thought, oh, we're're just gonna talk about periods as well. Okay, because that all goes together, apparently. But what my school did was they actually split up the boys and the girls and only taught the girls about the periods oh not good yeah so this was yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:47

This must have been when I was 16. Oh my gosh, that's crazy to know that I feel like that's so late in teaching people. It is. It is yeah, and especially in the class that I was in and high school where, like what, that you split up um genders and just teach one gender, which is wow yeah, I don't think it's that different today.

Speaker 2: 5:24

I can't speak for every school and I can't speak for every school in every country, but I still think there's still too much taboo around the issue. Our schools began to include boys and girls at a young age, so it normalizes it. It's not weird, it's not disgusting, it's not freaky, because everyone knows a menstruator, whether you were born of one or you have a sister, a brother, like a sister, a girlfriend. But I think when we separate boys and girls, you begin to think it's something either dirty or weird or off topic, and so I think we are doing a disservice by not talking about it early on, just early on. This is what happens, this is what it is, and it should not be a big deal.

Speaker 1: 6:17

Yeah, absolutely no, I totally agree. I do have a child. They're under the age of 10. She's wonderful and I've taught her about pads, tampons and like the cuts and like. This is like what I wanted to be taught, because I remember when I was 15, I want to say when I did my period. I literally remember it was like the nonchalantest thing with my mom and.

Speaker 1: 6:48

I didn't really have any education on it beforehand mom, look, I'm bleeding like coming from the toilet and she was oh yeah, that's just your period. I'm like what? Oh, exactly yeah, so when did you first realize menstruation was like a global justice, like issue?

Speaker 2: 7:11

yeah, and that was recently. So I started a non-profit called could you. Back in 2008, at the time we were working in Mozambique we were. We initially started the organization by bringing people of influence who wanted to leave a legacy but didn't know how to invest in Africa, to meet trusted partners in Africa so that together they could do charity or business. That's how we started, but it grew into. We were focusing in Mozambique and Mozambique has had the biggest oil discovery in the last 60 years. So, on and offshore, the most amount of oil that's been found is actually in Mozambique, so that means the country could either be deeply benefited or not, and so there was a lot of interest inside Mozambique to be sure that its own people would benefit from this oil discovery.

Speaker 2: 8:10

There was a very high illiteracy rate, very high. So at the time, 70% of the country was not literate. They were graduating seniors that they were calling functionally illiterate, which a bit of an oxymoron. You can't really be that functional if you're illiterate. So we were helping provincial government ministry of ed in Sofala province where we were training their teachers how to identify illiterate students that were in secondary school. They might be a science teacher in the seventh grade and this idea that they weren't taught how to teach people how to read because they were a seventh grade science teacher. So we worked with Mozambican teachers and they created a really beautiful curriculum to help older students get literate. In five months. We came alongside them, got the curriculum out there, published, and it was working really well. We were able to train teachers how to identify those students that were not literate and get them literate in five months Really good program.

Speaker 2: 9:10

In the process, though, it was brought to our attention that 93% of girls were starting kindergarten and only 11% were ending up in secondary school. 1% to college. You cannot build a nation without girls. 1% of college you cannot build a nation without girls. So, provincially, in Sofala province, we were asked to look at the gap. Why are so many girls missing school? Why are so many girls? Why is only 11% ending up in secondary school? And so we began to look into it with experts, people who are actually African leaders, who knew better than we, and we began to understand that there's lots of reasons why. So it's multifaceted. There could be 12 reasons.

Speaker 2: 9:49

However, this is the first time I heard about the issue of period poverty, and then I started to think about. Well, that makes sense. If you can't afford pads, if you're using a rag, if you are being told that it's using a rag, if you are being told that it's dirty to enter into a classroom or you can't cross a river or all these other myths, of course girls are going to miss school. So we began to get advice from the world's leading experts, from people in the field, and that's when I began to get obsessed, because that's as I said, that's when I learned it's happening in every country.

Speaker 2: 10:30

Girls are missing school, right here in San Diego, california, in New York city, literally three to five days a month. Girls are missing school because they can't afford pads. In every country around the world. Worse than that, they're using unhygienic items. In America, I've talked to girls who are using a tampon for over 16 hours Talk about a recipe for toxic shock because they can't afford enough. Or they're using rags, they're using leaves, they're using newspapers, they're using cow dung I mean, I've heard it all. And this is something that drove me to say hang on a second. If half of the population is menstruating and we can put people on the moon, we must be able to figure out how to help half of the population figure out how to meet their needs monthly, and that's when I started to focus on the menstrual cup.

Speaker 1: 11:28

Oh, wow, that's amazing. That is such a journey it is. It is, yeah, I love how it was teaching and then you went more into figuring out why girls were missing school and like it's horrible to think. I feel it's such a I want to say injustice the fact that we have, like man on the moon and things and so many companies and billionaires and all that stuff and it's it's such a basic right to have period products that's right like we're still having I don't even want to say problems, because it is solvable.

Speaker 2: 12:13

It really exactly exactly here. Here's what makes me crazy about this journey. So I am. I'm someone who believes the best in people. I believe people are good.

Speaker 2: 12:26

So I was shocked to find out that the menstrual cup has been around 88 years. I'm shocked that there has been study after study showing by universities that are quite well-respected London School of Tropical Medicine, liverpool School of Hygiene, all of these Columbia University you've got all of these universities who do really good work showing the cup is safe. If you know the cup is safe and you know the cup lasts for up to 10 years and you know that there is a problem with girls being able to afford a monthly pad or tampon, why, in 88 years, do we not teach about the measure of in our schools? Do we not see it in the development space more? Why is it that even today, if you go into a school in California or anywhere in America, 99.9% of those schools are still only teaching about tampons and pads? Shocking.

Speaker 2: 13:30

I don't understand. It's either misinformation or greed, because there are companies out there that would rather a woman have to buy a disposable product every month for 40 years of menstruating. So it's a combination of maybe they don't know about it maybe, but the time is now to say we have got to change the narrative. We have to be speaking about a safe product that is environmentally friendly, that could last for 10 years. That's what we need to talk about instead of just talking about and. This was put in a landfill where it will take 500 to 800 years to decompose yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 14:15

I mean, as you said, the time is now, especially with what's going on in the world, like now, we all need to band together and be like this is this is what we need.

Speaker 2: 14:25

Like right, right. That's why podcasts are important. I think that's you know. It used to be that only the big ad agencies. They got to direct the narrative right because you could pay a big ad company and they decided what went out there on the airwaves and on the television, on radio Not anymore. Now it's grassroots, it's people like you, it's podcasts, it's social media. It's all of that that is actually getting the word out, which I think is putting the power back into the hands of the people.

Speaker 2: 15:00

So we are happy to be on this podcast. We're hoping more and more people will talk about the issue and also talk about how it's solvable. It is actually solvable. Imagine if you could give someone a 10-year solution that for 10 years they don't have to buy pads or tampons. Imagine the money they save. Imagine what they could do with that money and the agency that they get to have to make good choices. It feels like absurd that we are still talking about 500 million people a month who can't afford a product, 500 million people missing work, missing school. It makes me crazy yeah, yeah, the cup.

Speaker 1: 15:36

It's small, it's reusable, it's inexpensive and like it's revolutionary, but like, at the same time, I feel like it shouldn't be. I feel like it should just be there, if that makes any sense, like 100% like the fact that it's been around for did you say 88 years?

Speaker 2: 15:58

yes, yes, that's even more. I think it was 96 the very first one and then obviously they've gotten better since then. Right now there are enough iterations that you have 100% medical grade silicone. That is fully kind of the best.

Speaker 2: 16:18

I feel like they have perfect, because I had never heard of a menstrual cup. I only heard about it when I started this work. So I tried it for the first time and it did take me three months, because it took me three cycles for whatever reason, but by the time I was very comfortable with it. I knew how much I was bleeding, because you can see it, compared to when it gets absorbed into a cotton tampon and you have no clue how much you blood. I also understood my body better. It was a game changer. I could be on a plane for 12 hours. I could be out in the field.

Speaker 2: 16:49

I think about how perfect a solution the menstrual cup is for our first responders. Whether you're fighting a fire, whether you're in the military, whether you're in the police force like there are so many situations whether you're a teacher and it's really hard to like leave for 15 minutes to go change your pad and tampon. I feel like it is such a good, healthy solution. The fact that we're not using it at at it should be as familiar as the tampon. That's kind of our goal. I want to look back 10 years from now and know that people know about the cup as much as they know about a tampon, and then let them have choice.

Speaker 1: 17:34

Yeah, absolutely, Absolutely. I mean with pads and tampons. They can be uncomfortable, but what we've only just learned with research is that there's things in those that shouldn't be in tampons there's things in those that shouldn't be in tampons, and it makes you sit back and be like how did what?

Speaker 1: 17:51

Like that is just another story to tell where why is lead, and God knows what is in these tampons and God knows what is in these tampons, and so it makes so much sense to go for a reusable, in a way hygienic. It sure does Like you know what's going in your body Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 18:19

Absolutely. They did a study at Duke University and I think it was either 23 or 24, and they tested a bunch of products and that included the reusable underwear. It included menstrual cups. Everything had what they're what they call a forever chemical. I think it's called PFAS, a forever chemical. Well, imagine it's not like you use these things once. We're talking putting in sometimes five or six a day for five days, every month, for 40 years, like that's a lot. And so when you heard about these forever chemicals, I thought and so the study concluded with we need more studies to look into forever chemicals.

Speaker 2: 19:10

I looked at the New York times in January of this year so in January of 2025, did it something that talked about? It truly said the Holy grail of menstrual products for the environment were was the menstrual cup the holy grail. They talked about how environmentally friendly it is. They talked about its safety.

Speaker 2: 19:30

Then, the next day, nicholas Kristof had an op-ed piece with a student that he worked with talking about the number of girls globally missing school because they can't afford a product, and I thought, okay, how is it that on one day we can say, look at the holy grail of a menstrual product and on the next day we talk about the issue of period poverty and in that op-ed it talked about how in the developing world, there is not good places to dispose of pads anyway. So now you have a sanitation issue, you have a water issue, you have a huge issue, and yet why is no one connecting the dots, like, why isn't the article? Instead, the holy grail of menstrual products ought to be the thing that we're bringing into each of these communities to solve a problem. Instead, I see article after article, study after study, talking about what a big problem it is. I, I, it makes me crazy. It makes me crazy. I'm like let's talk about the solution I love it.

Speaker 1: 20:38

I love how passionate you are about it. It is how I am, too. A lot of other things and activism and it's wonderful to hear somebody else talk about just like periods, like I want to give your head a shake Like there's multiple things that go along with periods Exactly what you're saying and then so I recently.

Speaker 2: 21:10

I have an advisor, um, who does work out of. She's been doing studies for decades. She's from liverpool school of tropical medicine and she is a researcher who concluded concluded a seven-year study that came out last year, in 2024. Okay, that study was in Kenya following girls who were using a menstrual cup, and here's what they found Girls who used the cup saw 33% reduced risk of HSV-2, which if you have that, you're three times as likely to get HIV. They experienced a 24% reduction in bacterial vaginosis, which is dangerous, and a 33% increase in healthy, good bacteria. Those are real numbers from like a scientific RCT trial over seven years. So it's like it's not just that it's safe, but it's actually creating healthier bacteria and it's decreasing a negative bacteria. It feels like to me common sense. We need an office of common sense at every federal and state level to be like okay, if we have the safest, greatest, cheapest menstrual product and we have a huge problem, why don't we combine the two and solve it?

Speaker 1: 22:23

office of common sense yeah, don't have it yet but that's what we need I don't know when we will have it, because it needs to work its way around. If ever we will have it right, right, the world.

Speaker 2: 22:37

The world needs it. It feels like sometimes I think we over, we over complicate things. We just we make things too complicated, and I still think greed plays a role yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 22:53

I think yeah, and and in the development space as well. Sometimes I've seen firsthand that sometimes people in position power would rather keep being paid to solve a problem, just solve it, and so it seems like the disposable pad is a band-aid, which means you would have to continue to fund disposable pads for vulnerable girls forever. I think better of people and I think, okay, let's just solve this issue. There's plenty of programs and problems out there in the world, but then you can actually shift this money to something else. But I think people are short-sighted.

Speaker 1: 23:39

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely short-sighted. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I. I think like there's there's so many problems with the world where it comes to certain things, especially when it comes to the female body, it's like it's like when you hit like a blockade and it's just like, well, there is this world of women and our bodies, and like there needs to be more research done on a lot of things about us and that's right, there is it's still such a big taboo periods. Um. I.

Speaker 1: 24:16

I know that when it comes to um, I know that I've seen in lgbtq spaces or alternative spaces that in the toilets they usually do have like period pads and things and I find that's very, very interesting because here in um the uk, if you go into like a pub or or something along those lines, usually there won't be period products for like for free, where they're just there like um, where I get like my nails done. They are very open about so much and thankfully we do have in the UK, we do have places where you can um have just they're just their period products and such, which is so great um, but there definitely needs to be, needs to be, so much more awareness because, especially if you have um, I'm gonna try and pronounce this endometriosis, is that how you say it? Yes, yes, yes, um, like the, there needs to be so much more research done on that and basically, just just more, just more and more. Exactly, it Exactly Believed as well.

Speaker 2: 25:53

Exactly, exactly, and that's where I feel like the masses need to demand better, and that's why I love social media. I think that people get to speak freely to each other and not have to have government speak for them or speak on their behalf, and so I like this idea that real conversations are happening, whether it's Instagram or TikTok or whatever, or podcasts. It's where actual people get to be in the conversation and that's where I think we'll see real change happen.

Speaker 1: 26:16

Yeah, absolutely no, I agree with that so much. There is so much that the government does control, especially the narrative of certain things and when it comes to social media and having your own platform you can share, you can like, you can comment, you can that's right build communities and it's so wonderful so. I agree how do we get one of these cups so?

Speaker 2: 26:43

right now. We have cups in America and we have cups in Africa, and we would be happy to get you some cups in England, one of the ways that we're. We have like distribution partners across Africa, so they're local entities that we import cups to. Because our cup is FDA registered, made in California. We hope to build a factory in Ghana in the next two years. We had actually received obligated money from USAID, gates Foundation and Children's Investment Fund. We were really excited. And Children's Investment Fund we were really excited. We were going to be doing a really big project across Kenya a lovely 82,000 cups proving the acceptability and scale of the cup. Unfortunately, usaid went away and so the only money that was left came from Gates Foundation and that is going to be doing a RCT trial in Kenya, which is still good, but we could do CARES more about implementation and trying to get the cup into the hands of girls, and so we're grateful to be a part of that particular pilot trial. But I would say right now we are about ready to launch, to launch. We're launching on what's that called Shopify in America, and so if yeah, yeah, and so I'm new to this space in England, so I would say that here's what I do know I do have right now. We have a hundred cups that are in, in, in, in with a friend of mine in England, and so if anybody wants it, here's what I would suggest you do. You should email info I-N-F-O at couldyouorg C-O-U-L-D-Y-O-Uorg. You can learn about our work. If you want to give a girl a 10-year solution, we have a huge wait list across Africa, and so we would love to see people donate $10, which would give a 10-year solution. Plus, it gives them health education.

Speaker 2: 28:52

One of the areas we're focusing most on in Africa is communities that have very high rates of teen pregnancy.

Speaker 2: 28:58

There is something that I was unaware of, but they stated how, ever since COVID, the number of girls having transactional sex for pads has increased so much that so has STIs, hiv, teen pregnancy and child marriage.

Speaker 2: 29:18

Our own findings across Africa is we will be with high school girls asking them, and they will say they made a choice, and it was a choice that they decided to have a boda boda driver who said if you have sex with me, I'll buy you a box of pads. And they thought you know, I want to be in school and I'll make that choice, not because it was what they wanted to do. It's what they thought they needed to do, and so those are the communities with very high rates of teen pregnancy that we really want to target. So we are always open for people to partner with us, to introduce us to Family Foundation. We have a 2 million girl wait list, and so we believe that we could end this if we could kind of reallocate some of this funding that's going to just reusable pads or disposable pads to older girls to give them a 10-year solution oh that it's devastating to hear the real life effects.

Speaker 1: 30:17

Yeah, I find it crazy about the actual like real, actual stories of people where they have to it's. It's such a unfair trade to do sexual stuff right for pads, or. Oh no, we should just not live in a world like that at all, that's right.

Speaker 2: 30:44

especially, we should look to people like Ireland. I'm sorry to interrupt you. Um, ireland did something huge, so Ireland has. You should look into it, because I don't want to misrepresent them, but I they have. They want to give free period products to everyone who needs it in Ireland and they've included the menstrual cup. Come on, that's amazing. That's amazing. Oh, that's really good. I think I'm saying that correctly. Please do look it up, because I know that they did set a national policy and I thought they were adding the cup into it. I know they were giving away free pads and tampons and I think they even added the cup. And all I know they were giving away free pads and tampons and I think they even added the cup. And all I know is that. Imagine a country we ought to learn from them. We ought to say this country not only believed it was a problem, but they believed it was important enough to put research behind it and make it a national solution, and I think the rest of us could learn a whole lot from that.

Speaker 1: 31:42

Yeah, so in Northern Ireland you can get free period products from libraries. That's what it's saying.

Speaker 2: 31:54

Wow.

Speaker 1: 31:55

Yeah, libraries and also a few. So Lidl, which is a shop we have here. They offer free period products as well, nationwide.

Speaker 2: 32:08

Wow, wow, that's nationwide. That's really good. Wow, that's amazing, that's amazing, that's amazing, wow Okay.

Speaker 1: 32:15

That's really interesting Wow. That's so good, just little things like that. So much, I think it's like a little firework going off and it's like, yeah, something's done, that's right. Oh god, that's so good. So have you faced any resistance talking about the cup and all sorts?

Speaker 2: 32:44

yes too much. Um, here is what has been surprising. So time and time and time again, we are told by funders, by people in authority, whether it's an individual or an institution. We are told over and over and over again the menstrual cup works, the menstrual cup is safe. But the menstrual cup isn't accepted in the developing world, it's not accepted in African communities because of religion, culture, lack of water et cetera. But that's not true. The reality is. Of course it takes effort, it takes work, you have to partner with good, vetted local NGOs who have good, trusted relationships. But information is power. If you give people, through local context, the right information, answer their questions so that they don't have fear and they understand it's safe and you're not trying to sterilize their girls girls, if you talk about what is a hymen and how a hymen can stretch and does stretch, lots of girls can lose that through exercise et cetera. If you answer their questions and you give them truth, they will make an educated decision to say yes.

Speaker 2: 33:59

Unfortunately, often the people in power 99.9% of the time the people in power who are holding the purse strings are making the decisions, make blanketed decisions for whole countries and say, oh, it doesn't work on the continent of Africa. It doesn't work in rural Africa. On and on and on. There's a million no's that we get and so we sometimes do get yes. But it has taken us years of no's until last year we started to get the first few yeses, which we had a breakthrough when we got Gates, bill Gates, gates, oh, wow, okay, that they would fund a three-year rigorous trial in Kenya and Malawi proving the safety as well as the acceptability of the Cuphead scale showing how it correlates between decreasing child marriage and teen pregnancy. So it was a big win.

Speaker 2: 35:00

It took us a lot of years to get there. We got there Now when the money went away because USAID went away. It doesn't mean the idea is bad right, it just means it's still a good idea. And now Gates is still going to fund the RCT trial. That's great in Kenya and I'm still going to find new money because we still want to prove the cup will be accepted at scale, because it does take more effort. Of course it's easier to hand someone a disposable pad. They know how to use that. Yes, it takes three months on average to get used to a cup, but isn't it worth all of us figuring out how do we do the hard work for the first three months so that you have a 10-year solution. It is worth the effort, absolutely. Let's train teachers, of course, of course. Train teachers, of course, of course.

Speaker 1: 35:46

Yeah absolutely Teachers, parents, that's right.

Speaker 2: 35:57

Government. That's right. That's right. Community health workers. We just need to sit down and be strategic and say who are the leaders in the community? How do we get to the girls at a mass way? How do we train community health workers and teachers on how to use the cup, how to clean it, how to store it? How do we give them the power to be able to train other people? Then, within a year, it would a result, because it's not just a 10-year solution, but girls have less shame. Girls are staying in school, world Bank says, by not graduating 12 years of school. We, if we know girls are missing school because they can't afford products. It would be quite wise and fiscally responsible for us to spend money on a 10 year safe solution. The fact that we're not makes me want to scream.

Speaker 1: 37:00

Yeah, yeah, it's crazy that we do have the government talking about how have um, the government talking about how, um, what, what, what did they say? Basically, just like no, just just no. And I love how you covered the myths which which was which I was going to talk about, because there are so many myths when it comes to the menstrual cup, especially when, um, because I've heard some people say, oh no, no, if I use it, then I, I won't be like a virgin anymore. And it's like right, no, you're okay, right, right, right yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:42

Um, yeah, I mean it. And then it feels like if you want to teach about virginity, then teach about hymen. Explain what is a hymen, explain how it stretches, explain all of that and allow for people to make decisions based on something that's not true.

Speaker 1: 38:05

Yeah, absolutely Like certain things, many, many things, to be fair. I feel like it's one big thing in the middle and then it's like a spider diagram going off of all these other problems that we have which are somehow connected and oh it. If it feels so simple that it could all just be done and over with and researched and proven Absolutely, absolutely so in December 2024, when the grant was awarded, what did that mean to you guys?

Speaker 2: 38:52

was awarded what? What did that mean to you guys? Well, it was a game changer for us because we felt like we had worked really hard to prove that the cup was accepted culturally. When you break myths, when you include communities, when you get stakeholders at the table to understand the choice of the cup, then we felt like what a win. We believed that with that money, it was allowing my organization to place an order for 82,000 cups, which is amazing. It was going to change the lives of 82,000 girls and it was also going to be able to be documented through real science to show impacts of decreased absenteeism. Even decreased child marriage and decreased teen pregnancy was going to show acceptability at a large number. We believed that was our breakthrough moment that we had been working for, we've been working for. We also believed that then these large funders, when they saw how a $10 solution could have such beautiful return on investment, we believed that three years of the study ending or the study starting, that we would see large funders, governments, allocating real money towards a solution.

Speaker 2: 40:06

There are nations in Africa who are spending anywhere from 7.5 million to $35 million on just disposable pads, but when you ask, how many pads does a girl get. They get about on average, eight to 12 in a year. That's not solving a problem, that is throwing money away. So we felt like this was our breakthrough. And then, when USAID went away, everyone, $70 billion was gone. And so we know organizations who lost $600 million. We as an organization, a lot on a little, we lost a million dollars and that's a big deal for us because we had framework, we had put in an order, we had hired people and so, but it could have destroyed us. But we are. I care too deeply about this issue. I believe it's solvable and so we will pivot and work around and find different funding and we're grateful to still be in the gate trial that is, with Camry University and Liverpool school of tropical medicine in in Kenya. So we still are going to fight the fight.

Speaker 2: 41:14

But it was devastating. It was absolutely devastating and I could have given up, except that I get videos often of girls saying this changed my life. When I look at a girl who used to sit on sand, dig a hole and bleed into it, who now has the freedom to have a safe product for 10 years, those are the reasons. Those girls are the reasons that we will not stop, we will just find resources in other places and if we have to keep. Right now I can serve 50,000 girls a year.

Speaker 2: 41:44

I'd like to serve 5 million. I'd like to see the nations serve everyone with choice, especially older girls. If you're in secondary school or you're a woman, you ought to have the choice of a real bad or a cup. Still think it's true. I think you're gonna see. Five years from now, ten years from now, you will start to see the cup put into legislation. I think you will start to see it more in schools. I think every country will start to. They need to get a solution that is economically reasonable and safe and I don't see any other option other than the cup yeah, where would you see it in legislation?

Speaker 2: 42:31

so if you in america, many cities and states write what they call menstrual equity bills I'm sure they do the same in england, but I don't know, but I know they do in america. They write these bills where they say we are going to mandate that you must provide a menstrual hygiene product to and they defined the audience. So in California it was to every grade six through 12, plus. They're also doing government buildings in San Diego County. Well, every school, grade six through 12, half of the bathrooms had to have dispensers in it. The problem is the menstrual equity bills. In America they said in the bills the definition of a menstrual hygiene product is a disposable tampon or pad. So by actual, they legislated the exclusion of the cup. It's absurd to me. So New York city, when they, when it was brought to their attention, they changed they literally Amanda Farias and her team it was brought to their attention, they changed they, literally Amanda Farias and her team actually rewrote five new bills and then she defined the definition by including the cup, which was huge. So this is encouraging. It means that cities like New York are understanding we need to add the cup.

Speaker 2: 43:45

I believe Grace Meng, if she added the cup, that is a huge thing. If you look at Ireland, Scotland, there's a few countries that are realizing the importance. She added the cup. That is a huge thing. If you look at Ireland, Scotland, there's a few countries that are realizing the importance of adding the cup. I would say I want to see the same happen in Africa or in India or wherever we're going to be mandating that we're giving away free menstrual hygiene products. No one can afford to give you a free product every month for 40, 40 years. We might as well start to give them a product that can last a long time, because every you would think your life will increase enough and be better in 10 years that you can buy your own product after that so I don't know if it includes the menstrual cup.

Speaker 1: 44:29

I'm gonna say no. But in Scotland, um, if you do search up your local council then you can search where you can get free products. So most schools, colleges and universities you can get period products um for free during term wow there is an app amazing, yeah, amazing there's an app called pick up my period where it shows you where you can get free period products all across scotland and you can search it by area.

Speaker 1: 45:05

So good, oh, I feel like the more we speak about period, so good yeah, the more we do speak about it, the more it hits like we need so much still. We need so much more education to towards the children. Maybe other adults just sit them in on, just on a table. Yes, let's discuss with the facts.

Speaker 2: 45:32

That's right, and here's what you should do in Scotland, cause that's where you are right. Yes, yes, you should. If you could research this, what you just said, and find out if it's the cup included and if not, you should find out why. Because what I found in America is, when I asked the why, a lot of times the people in charge didn't even realize the cup was an option, and so, once they understood it was an option, then they can make a choice. You should find out because, again, it's amazing what they're doing by giving away free pads and tampons, but why not give a 10-year solution instead or as an option? I think you should, and maybe a progressive country could make that choice where you're not only doing something amazing by giving away free products, but imagine if you could just give a girl, a woman, a product and not have to go back and she has to go find it every single month when she's not unable to afford it. So, hopefully, if Scotland doesn't yet include the cup, they should.

Speaker 1: 46:35

Yeah, it's absolutely crazy. Like, like, I'm trying to make it make sense in my mind why they wouldn't, why anybody wouldn't include the cup. Like, yes, I understand that you're not like throwing it in the bin. It's reusable. Like, make like. Is it the? Make it make sense yeah, like, is it the like gross aspect, or like what, like, what?

Speaker 2: 46:58

well, exactly, exactly so, and even let's define gross, because have you looked at a tampon? Have you looked at, I mean, have you looked at birth tampon? Have you looked at, I mean, have you looked at birth? Have you seen a baby be born, like you can call something? That is the beginning of life gross too. So it's a matter of messaging. Let's message better, let's create it so that everyone understands that when you menstruate, you are now have the ability to bring life into the world. It should be something that is beautiful and not gross. And let's figure out.

Speaker 2: 47:30

And here's the thing I don't think it takes that much work. I think people like you could ask good questions and I think you would find out either the people who made those laws, if your country did not include the cup. Maybe they just didn't realize how well it worked. But I feel like I want to believe in the goodness of people. I want to believe that if you bring the right information, that they will make the right choices because they want to serve their people better. And so I can't wait to have this call a year from now and see, did Scotland add the cup in? I'd love to find out. I have a feeling Scotland might have added the cup. I really think so, or maybe I'm an optimist.

Speaker 1: 48:10

But I would say you see the good in everything.

Speaker 2: 48:14

I want to believe they did, but if not, then they will, I think, bring it to their attention. If you're a woman and you've used the cup, you know. I think they say nine, it works, it works.

Speaker 1: 48:28

It just works. So what is the future for Kudu the?

Speaker 2: 48:34

future for Kudu is we will continue to raise money, raise awareness. Try to get larger funders to fund the cup at scale so that we can start to change policies. Add the cup into national budgets so we can end the issue. If you ask me, what do I want to see accomplished? I want to end period poverty by 2040. The way we can do that is by stopping siloed and instead partner with NGOs, governments, foundations, policymakers, and sit at the table together and say what does it take to end the issue and then begin incorporating the cup into health, education, into schools, into clinics, and I think there's enough money out there to do this. If you think about the amount of money being spent every single year just on giving away free reusable or free disposable pads, it's a lot. We can do a lot better than that oh, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1: 49:35

There's so much money. We need it right. We need it for certain things which are very important. So scotland's period products free provision. Scot Scotland Act 2021 ensures access to all period products, not just tampons and pads, and it does include the menstrual cups. See, yay, I knew it Come on Scotland.

Speaker 2: 50:00

Yeah, I love that, see, that's amazing. And here's the other thing, though Do enough people in Scotland know about the cup? Because if it's in there, that's amazing, right. So now the next thing is there must be a way for schools to start to teach about the cup, because just because you offer a product campaign, add it into their curriculum in schools, talk about it on radio, because you guys are way above the rest of the world. So well done Scotland, making sure people had correct information about each of the products and let people make a choice, because if you are needing money, the only economical choice would be the cup. Yeah, it's the cheapest of all of it. So I think, well done Scotland, and I think anyone out there listening if you are connected to your own governments, follow Scotland's lead and begin to actually solve a problem.

Speaker 1: 51:09

Yeah, so since August, august 15th 2022, it was a legal, legal requirement for local authorities. Schools, universities and public service service buildings across Scotland must offer free menstrual products. Amazing amazing.

Speaker 2: 51:27

I'd love to follow up with you and ask this question. I'd love for you to go to your local university and ask a student do you know how to get the product? Oh, that's curious, right. Do you know? How do you know?

Speaker 2: 51:43

Because here's the other thing why students, if I ran a university first day of school, I'd be announcing to the entire, I'd be sending email blasts, I'd be putting it in their welcome packet, I'd be doing assembly same If you don't, if you need a product, we're here to help you. And I'd make sure they knew it was available. I'd also make sure that we gave them ideas of what are the different products. I would do that in schools, universities, and I would begin to get the word out. Because what I found in California was schools were mandated to give out products. Only when you go to the schools, the schools are like I don't know how to access the funding to get the product to give to my students. So then it got complicated, very full of red tape. They weren't doing it. I say, let's make it simple. And so I'd be so curious if you asked a college student on a campus do you know that you can get a free menstrual product Do they know, and do they know how and do they know what?

Speaker 1: 52:42

I feel like just everybody do that, just everybody go out. Everybody do that and come back and tell us and tell us yeah, oh, my gosh, so we're coming to the final. Oh, yes, this has been so great. What does a world without period poverty look?

Speaker 2: 53:00

like oh it looks like freedom. It looks like girls getting more opportunity to thrive. It looks like girls not missing work, not missing school. It looks like boys and girls being comfortable talking about the issue at a young age without embarrassment. It means healthier. Better health means healthier. Better health, better well-being, less misinformation, more money in our economies when girls graduate. There's no downside to this. There's none. Find a downside. There's none. There is no downside to ending this issue. It will free up money and it will keep the environment safer. Everything about it is better, and so, to me, we end it and, as I said, then there's more money that's not being thrown away every month. That money can be spent on another issue so that we can make the world better.

Speaker 1: 53:59

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the only downside is just the people who like money. That's literally it.

Speaker 2: 54:06

Okay, that's the downside. That's the downside.

Speaker 1: 54:09

That's it. The rest happy, so happy. That's right, that's right.

Speaker 2: 54:16

And here's what I say about them. If you are so capable that you're a group of companies that can make $40 billion a year, bring your manpower together and find a new product after you solve this issue. Do you know what I mean? Like there's enough issues out there in the world. Bright people can find ways to make money on something else once you end this, but don't keep girls down and say you want to solve the issue if all you're going to give them is a disposable pad, because then you actually are using the issue to continue to put money in your pocket. Let's at least be honest about what we're doing, so yeah, there you go well, done well.

Speaker 2: 54:57

Thank you so much for having me on the podcast and I'd love to stay in touch and see what else Scotland's doing. And again, scotland, well done for being so progressive and proactive to serve your women and girls. What a great thing.

Speaker 1: 55:09

I know right so now you can plug whatever you want to say and um, where to donate, and things like that. Yes, thank you, thank you thank you.

Speaker 2: 55:19

Thank you. You can go to our website at wwwcouldyouorg. You can donate online. You can if you are listening in any part of well. If you want to go and buy a cup, you can do that on wwwcouldyoucuporg. That's a buy one, give one. You buy a cup and a girl in Africa gets a cup off the wait list and it's real Like it's beautiful we're. I hope that if you're in England and you would like a cup, I'll find a way to get you one. So let's figure this thing out together.

Speaker 1: 55:53

Oh, this has been so, so wonderful. Thank you so much Thank you For joining me on this episode. It has been enlightening in good and bad ways, in the ways of just like this is reality, which people are dealing with and we need to change it.

Speaker 2: 56:13

Well, thank you for what you're doing and I hope that we stay in touch.

Speaker 1: 56:16

Yeah, thank you very much. Right, I'm going to beat you from the call and be really nice, okay, right, oh my God, that was amazing, that was so good. I'm so happy, right, oh my god, that was amazing, that was so good, I'm so happy. So this has been behind the paddle podcast with me, possum, victoria and christine god denning. So happy, so happy. So we leave you with this dignity is not a luxury and menstruation is not a secret. To stand for justice means to stand in the flow, to look directly at the things we're taught to hide. Christine Gardening is doing that work 100%, and now you can too. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I'm so happy. It has been so wonderful and so fun. And, yeah, you can catch the podcast on Spotify, apple and yeah, please leave a review. That would be great. Thank you so much. Bye.