The False Promise of Kink Contracts

Speaker 1 0:57

Hello and welcome to Behind the Banner Podcast from Impulse in Victoria . I am so excited . Today we're going to talk to Celeste Hirschman and Dr Danielle Harrell , who , if you watch TV , they are on Channel 4 , Virgin Island . So I'm very , very excited . So we're going to basically talk about the Somatica Institute . Consent is sacred , but it's also often misunderstood , especially in kink , when the illusion of control can sometimes masquerade as actual care . Today I want to talk about a tool that many of us use in BDSM , have used , trusted and even ritualised and yet which sometimes quietly fails us the contract sometimes quietly fails us .

Speaker 1 2:05

the contract , the written contract in kink , whether it's on paper or in an app , or a verbal list of promises about safety . But can it actually provide it and if not , what does ? Let's begin where the myth began In the leather clubs of the 1970s and 80s . In the early days of the old guard , kink contracts were never legal documents . They were not court enforced . What they were was context . They helped a gay man and later other marginalised kinksters have a shared understanding in a world where no one else was looking out for them . At their best , these agreements were intimacy tools . They told a story about trust . Intimacy tools , they told a story about trust . They gave structure to desire . But somewhere along the line they began to be treated as legal shields , false armor . Today we'll see the contracts laid out in erotic media , in workshops On Fairlife , for example . They are stylised , even romantic . They're meant to say quote Look how serious I am about your safety . Quote look how serious I am about your safety . And often they do set a helpful tone .

Speaker 1 3:51

But the problem arises when we start confusing structure with consent , when we start thinking a signed paper means nothing can go wrong ? It can . So let's talk about an example . A submissive let's call her Leela negotiates a cnc scene . Consent , non-consensual , so a rape scene . Basically , it can be in a way , depending on what exactly you're doing , but there is consent in a non-consenting role . It sounds confusing , but it's not , don't worry .

Speaker 1 4:36

Scene with her dominant . They've been together for months . She trusts him . They agree on the limits no striking her face , no anal and a full stop if she uses her safe word . On paper it's solid In tone .

Speaker 1 4:57

She's excited , but 20 minutes into the scene something shifts . The physical intensity reminds her body of an earlier trauma . She thought she'd moved past . Her breath shortens , she goes still , not in that sweet surrendering way , but in a freeze response . She's too deep in it to speak . He continues . He believes she is aroused because the contract said yes . Afterward she feels confused , betrayed . Even he feels guilt , confusion . But they both agreed , didn't they ? And this is the heart of the problem consent that's only cognitive , isn't consent that lives . The body can change its answer , even when the mind says go . The contract is a map , not the terrain

When Consent Fails: Body vs. Mind

Speaker 1 6:10

.

Speaker 1 6:12

So what do we do ? Instead ? We evolve , we bring in the nervous system , just like we have talked about in the chemistry of the previous episode , of the neurochemistry of BDSM , of the brain . While doing BDSM We've got the dopamine , the cortisol , serotonin , all sorts , all sorts more . And , yeah , this goes with it . We learn to listen for silence that signals fear , not submission . We learn that stopping doesn't mean failure , it means fidelity to the truth of the moment and , more importantly , we shift our models from performative safety to embodied care , from static rules to dynamic relationship .

Speaker 1 7:15

Consent isn't a piece of paper , it's a living practice and it begins again and again in the body . If you can't read a submissive's body , you're not ready to touch it . Real-time consent is the antidote to passive assumptions . It's how we listen not just to a partner's words but to their breath , their posture , their presence . It's how we make sure the yes we got five minutes ago is still the yes we're playing with now . To explore this , I'm going to be joined in a minute by Celestial Hirschman and Dr Daniela Harlem , co-founders of the Somatica Institute . You are listening to Behind the Pad podcast with me Poulsen , victoria , a dominatrix and professional sex worker in general . I do a multitude of jobs and have a multitude of skills and , yeah , this is my lovely little podcast , which I love to do , and I love to educate , and I love to give information on certain aspects which I feel like need to be spoken about . So , yeah , so to explore this , I'm joined by Celeste Hirschman and Dr Danielle .

Speaker 2 8:58

Harrell , anything goes , just that's fine .

Speaker 1 9:02

No , my ADHD is like you're going to forget now , that's it .

Speaker 2 9:06

Oh , I hear you , I have it too .

Speaker 1 9:11

Dr Daniela .

Speaker 2 9:12

Harrell oh my God , Dr Danielle Harrell .

Speaker 1 9:17

Dr Danielle Harrell , co-founders of the Somatica Institute . So thank you both for coming on . I'm very , very excited . This is so good .

Speaker 3 11:33

Thank you so much for having us . We're excited to be here . We are very excited .

Speaker 1 11:39

So could you talk to me about what somatica is ?

Speaker 3 11:45

yes , somatica is an experiential two-way relationship coaching that helps people have the most in the most satisfying erotic and emotional life as possible . So we've created an institute where we train coaches in the method to help people with their sex lives and relationships . So what it really helps people with is learning how to be true to themselves and go out in the world and get what they really want yeah , I mean , it was definitely .

Speaker 2 12:14

It's definitely a first for me learning about this and I feel like it's not talked about enough yeah , I feel you mean like not talked enough , like this modality and method being out there , yeah , yeah , yeah to yourself and getting the best life possible .

Speaker 2 12:33

Well , neither of those are not talked enough , and we do feel what we see a lot is when people actually go through a training and get in touch with like this kind of like method and approach , their life does become much better and they do , you know , become much more true to themselves and then go out there and create the life that they want for themselves .

Speaker 1 12:55

So , yeah , yeah , I mean seeing it and reading about it . I'm like , wow , this makes , this makes sense . Like why aren't we doing this ?

Speaker 3 13:05

I know that's why we were so excited when Virgin Island came around , because we realized , like more and more people were going to see , that there's ways to learn , uh , that are much more embodied and experiential and so way faster and more effective .

Speaker 1 13:19

I think um Channel 4 and Virgin Island . It's so perfect for the UK because we I find that we are so curious looking through that door where there is loads of questions and there's . I guess it's taboo still in a way when you do look through that

Introduction to The Somatica Institute

Speaker 1 13:41

door and I would imagine that there's a lot of audience looking into that door and going wow and hopefully educating themselves at the same time as well .

Speaker 2 13:54

Yeah , definitely . I do feel that people were like kind of like surprised and a bit overwhelmed and cringed because we're not used to seeing like oh , like people actually can be helped in that way . People can be helped in such a direct , connected , embodied and kind of relational way and that's like very new for people and makes them uncomfortable . And I'm really proud of the British audience because they got hooked and they understand that there's something really powerful here and getting lots of DMs from people across the age range and telling us how powerful it is for them to see it and how it spikes conversations and how they start to relate to themselves in a different way . So I feel like this inspiration that we were looking forward to kind of creating is actually taking place .

Speaker 1 14:52

So how was the institute made , developed ?

Speaker 3 14:58

Well , danielle and I met 20 years ago and we realized we had a very similar vision about how people could be helped in their sex lives and relationships .

Speaker 3 15:06

And then it was experiential and , as we were working with clients , we developed this method based on what we saw that they needed to learn , what were the tools that were making their lives better . And then we developed it , developed it , and then we were seeing so many clients we didn't know what to do with them and so we decided to start a training that we would have people to refer to who we felt could really help because they were also offering this experiential method . So that's how the whole method and training began . And now it's spreading all over and we're seeing people sparking from our classes , from the books , from the television show , and we just want it to ripple out and everybody to have these tools . Uh of you know the best practices around intimacy , around boundaries , around consent , around desire , asking for what you want , knowing who you are as an erotic being , flirting , dating , all of it . We just want people to like have those tools so that their lives will be so much better .

Speaker 2 16:04

Yeah , yeah , and just to say just , you know . So I said we didn't know what to do with them . We did know what to do with them , we just couldn't fit them in our schedule anymore . So that's like and like knowing that we also could not turn them away because we felt like it wasn't available . This method wasn't available for people and we didn't want them to not get helped . So that's how we started to develop the training wow , that's amazing .

Speaker 1 16:29

I mean , that's , it's in my head . It's like it's kind of sad to see . But it's a great business in a way , because there is there's so many people out there who need this and it really does show , especially with the audience that you get for Virgin Islands and , of course , your own clientele as well .

Speaker 3 16:52

So yeah , I mean honestly , I would love to live in a world where my business isn't needed , but since it is , I'm glad that we're doing it .

Speaker 1 16:59

Yeah so we've kind of already touched on this , but like what gap were you trying to fill in the world of sex desire healing ? What was the gap there ?

Speaker 2 17:17

I think , was when we came into that space . We were both , like you know , had other trainings . You know , like Celeste is a lot of . She has a master's in in human sexuality and bachelor's in women's studies or gender studies as we call it today , and I have my master's in clinical social work and bachelor's in psychology and kind of like . We had like those different backgrounds and we're like also taking like experiential training and what we saw is like the talk therapy doesn't really help people enough .

Speaker 2 17:49

It definitely there's not enough training on sexuality . It's not actually offering people what the help that they need around sexuality and relationship , and the hands-on modality is just not actually offering enough of a relational approach . They're more like I'm going to teach you about your pleasure , but then how are you going to go and share it with a partner ? So that's how we started to build Somatica , really feeling like how do we take the best of all world and add on the relational aspects into helping people to communicate , to be know what they want , know what turns them on , and then also communicated to their partners and also like learn relational skills ? You know , because things are not going to be like smooth people . You know , being in relationship is at least two people , if not more , trying to navigate something so complex with all their differences . So that's how . That's the really important place that we are filling with Somatica .

Speaker 1 18:53

So with me . I've been a professional dominatrix for eight years now . So going over this and learning about somatica , I'm just like , wow , this really goes in so much with my own work and like lifestyle as well , where we recently did a episode on um the chemicals in the brain , on um dopamine , serotonin , all that good . And it was so interesting to read up about somatica and it just felt like it goes together so well and I was a little bit proud of myself . I was just like , ooh , I make sure my subs are okay and you check on their breathing and if they're tense and all that stuff . And I said this is so , so interesting , like it's more than it's like a life skill . It really is where it's just needed . There needs to be that communication in so many different ways , in so many different ways . So how does Somatica hold space for things like shame , kink , taboo , not just things as things to analyze but as things to eroticize ?

Speaker 3 20:17

Yeah , I mean we're very kink positive and we are ruthless de-shamifiers . We're trying to root out shame in

Living Consent and Shame in the Body

Speaker 3 20:22

the world so that people can fully own who they are as erotic beings and feel really empowered . And kink is such a profound opportunity for healing which I think people don't necessarily realize . We have these wounds and then we can go into experiences of BDSM and kink and we can explore them from an empowered place like reclaim our agency , reclaim our body , reclaim consent and choice . As we're playing with these intense fantasies in real time , and especially if you have a dom like yourself who cares so deeply and is attuned , the healing is just endlessly possible . And that's what we practice with our clients in Somatica as well , bringing that attunement and that support for them to expand .

Speaker 1 21:12

Yeah , oh , it's so beautiful . It really is when I've got a client and we do something where , like from my personal experience where I've something with somebody , um , and it just hasn't went well , and then I've tried it with somebody else and it's just flowed so much better and you've got the communication there , and it is like so much more beautiful when there is that communication and it does make it helps with the trauma so well .

Speaker 2 21:44

oh , I can't praise it enough , I really can't yeah , and I think , like what , what we also kind of contribute to the field is , like you know . So I developed like a whole categorization and understanding of , like what really turns people on , and because it's so unique , you know like , as you said , you try something with someone and it doesn't flow well , maybe , maybe because they didn't know exactly what they needed , or you know like , maybe the communication didn't go well .

Speaker 1 22:13

So we have this like helping , helping professionals to help their clients uh , really kind of nail down what the desire is to help them like go through this process of healing and yeah , yeah , in my work there's a few different types of clients and they get the clients who just want to do things quickly and whatnot , and then there's clients who do want to , I guess , find their inner self . And I'm just like , ok , we've got to go through the checklist of like , make sure what you do enjoy , what you think you enjoy , we can try all those . But it's going to be rocky at first , but we'll figure things out and stuff and like there needs to be very clear communication . So like we go by traffic , light colors and every every so often it's just like do you like this ? Do you like this ? Is there any little difference which needs to be spoken about ? And so we can change certain things ?

Speaker 3 23:17

oh , it's so good yeah , I feel like that's what you're talking about , talking exactly about that moment to moment consent so when did you begin to see shame not as something to erase , but something to explore ? Do you ?

Speaker 2 23:38

want to answer that one , danielle , you love to explore I really I think like this has been something that we like . Really one of the reasons we partnered together was because we saw that that kind of like importance of erasing shame and like really looking at our turn-ons as something that is is more like telling us about who we are and have a potential of healing as opposed to looking at it as something that we need to be ashamed of . And it really is a very strong leading principle in our work that our turn-ons can really heal us . We're not choosing what turns us on , but when we are playing with that in a consensual and also aware way , full of agency , we can actually bring so much release of shame and so much kind of like healing into our lives .

Speaker 3 24:39

And sometimes , like you said , like shame is what turns people on Right , and so it's like we're all always de-shamifying and like helping people accept themselves . But if somebody comes into my office and they're like what turns me on is to be shamed , it's like okay , let's play with that and and and actually practicing , like okay , so what is the kind of shame that you want to experience ? What are the words ? Right , really eliciting that and then playing with the scene a little bit and having them check in , like , is this feeling empowering ? Am I excited ? Am I aroused ? Is there anything that feels not good about it ? Is there ways to say it differently so that people can become really precise about whatever their fantasy might be , including if it has to do with shame ?

Speaker 2 25:26

Yeah , yeah , like be shameifying the people turned on by shame .

Speaker 1 25:31

Yeah , this is so good for myself because I'm like I am doing this right . Yeah , because , like I do think to myself sometimes where I'm just like right , this person , this client in front of me , needs to understand , like we need to get down to like the bottom of this . It's like sometimes it's like a needle in a haystack and I'm just like we might try something . You might not like it , I might say a certain word and that might absolutely turn you off , and we need to understand that . We need to recognize that . We need to recognize that and we need to also possibly figure out why as well .

Speaker 2 26:06

So , oh , it sounds fantastic , victoria , because that's exactly it right , like one sentence is gonna be completely arousing and completely nailed down for one person and completely turn someone else off . And it's so . You know like , it's so powerful , you know , like I know , like for myself , like one time my partner was playing with , trying to give me the right sentence and he was just like . He was just like I want to be naughty and I want to be like bad , but I don't like to be dirty . So in some specific way that he said it , I was like oh no , no , no , no , in that way , we don't like it . It's a nuanced , it's a nuanced craft to be able to tell someone exactly the right sentences that fit them it is .

Speaker 1 26:55

It's such a beautiful skill because me personally I'm a switch , so like I don't like humiliating on myself , but dirty , yes , and there's been times with previous partners where it's going great and then they say something and I'm just like what exactly ?

Speaker 3 27:13

oh , you missed it .

Speaker 1 27:16

I'm like I'm gone now , I'm out of it .

Speaker 2 27:20

I know and you know , like in somatica , we also teach people how to recover from moments like that , like how do you repair , how do you recover , how do you remember that it's just like one experience and it doesn't mean that it's the end of it all . How can you keep course correcting to get to the precision , because we know how precise desires are right , like how precise the words , the energy , the sensations that we want to feel .

Speaker 1 27:48

So what are some of the most common misread cues you see during high intensity scenes , especially when people are learning to distinguish surrender from shutdown ?

Speaker 3 28:01

Yeah , I feel like the times when you really need to check in , because sometimes people can go into trance and they're fully experiencing it and they're sensing all the sensations and it feels good and it's alive and it's moving through their body and sometimes they can just go dissociative and those two states can actually look very similar .

Speaker 3 28:19

So I think what you know , when we're working with a client , for example , who loves trance but also dissociates , it's like how do you help them , help their partner ? Because when we think about , like a dom sub situation , right , like yes , the dom is kind of in charge , but they're on a team when it comes to safety and consent , right . And so , as a sub , if you might dissociate , you need to tell your dom , like how to distinguish if you're in trance or dissociating , or when to check on you in that situation . And that needs to be established early on so that you know if you're a dom in that situation . You're like I need to hear that you're in your trance and you're in your body . And if they can't talk at that moment , then it might be like okay , we need to pause for a second and check in , you know . So that would be like an example of something that can be confusing trance versus dissociation so if they are dissociating what ?

Speaker 1 29:15

what are the um ? How would they show that ? Basically , how would they be able to tell their partner ? It might just not ?

Speaker 3 29:25

be anything , oh , go ahead .

Speaker 2 29:29

I think that's a little bit like where there's some learning that needs to be done in terms of like a person learning to kind of like realize what's going on in their body when they dissociate . Or their partner is starting to track , like knowing that that's happening . Their partner needs to start tracking what does dissociation feel like and look like with a sub and then kind of check in and make sure that you know . Like sometimes people think that the point is to finish the scene . The point is actually not to finish the scene . The point is to stop and make the scene satisfying and fulfilling . And then , if you're not sure about it , it's better to stop and check and maybe say , hey , I'm just checking that you're still there , and then creating a system of like oh , I don't know , maybe you squeeze me . How do you come back in that moment ? Because it's different . The experience of being trans and dissociation is different in terms of the agency and the ability to come back to your body and respond to communication .

Speaker 3 30:35

But you can make those systems of checking actually part of the dominant sub relationship , right , it can be really sexy to check Like I need to tell , I need you to tell me with your words if you're really here . I need you to squeeze my leg if you're really here , right , so you're still in the dom space , and then if you see that they're scrambling or they don't know what to do , then you might actually have to take a full time out . But there's a way you know , so you can set up these like sexy ways of reaffirming consent . Ongoing in the moment .

Speaker 1 31:05

That's such a good example where you can what's the word ? Still be in the scene and still be in the whole mindset of the dom and the sub .

Behind Virgin Island: Healing Shame on TV

Speaker 1 31:19

Oh , that's so good . Where you are just tangling , notling , what's what's the word ? Um , blending , yes , that's the word . Yes , when you're blending it and it blends so smoothly and like it , oh , it is such . It can be such a learning curve as well . And , yeah , sexy , absolutely , I mean consent and safety . That's all sexy , that all should be just praised and like thought about absolutely , I know that's what I love about somatica .

Speaker 2 31:55

We really try to make healing sexy , to make sex sexy , to make communication sexy and connected , because I think this is like really helps motivate people and it doesn't . Healing doesn't have to be like serious , it can be playful , it can be fully engaging all our systems and not just like our mind thinking about things .

Speaker 1 32:18

So make and send sexy mind thinking about things , so make consent sexy . So what does it mean to cultivate somatica fluently as a dominant or a practitioner ?

Speaker 3 32:34

I feel like it's when you you integrate all of the tools into your life , right , and so , you know , as somatic practitioners , we are walking the talk , we are sharing our boundaries lovingly , we are communicating and repairing with our partners and our clients .

Speaker 3 32:51

If you know , if it comes up that there's something that's hard for them in in the relationship , we're not pretending that we have it all together , that we're all done . We are deeply , deeply human and we're embodying that we have it all together , that we're all done . We are deeply , deeply human and we're embodying that humanness and sharing that with our clients so that they can feel comfortable and safe doing that as well , and I think that creates a space where they can show up and really show all of their parts that they might have felt ashamed of or they might be hiding , or their turn-ons , their kinks . If you create that really safe space and you're like , hey , there's no judgment here , we're all human , let's talk about what's really going on . What are the things that you do that are challenging and really hard in relationship ? What are the things that turn you on that you feel like you don't want to tell anyone ? That's the space that we create in Somatica um , by walking the talk in our own lives as well yeah .

Speaker 1 33:44

So I think , um , at least in my life and a few others which I've seen , shame is like one of the first things that we're talking , that we're taught to feel about our bodies , um , about wanting , about needing like .

Speaker 1 34:03

For some people it doesn't just live in our heads , it lives in , like our muscles and our breathing and our posture . I know from my childhood that I was like just shamed for like masturbating and things . And then my , my parents , who I grew up with , they were not so fond of anything to do with sex or intimacy and it was very much taboo . And I see it a lot in my older clients usually clients who are over 40 . Usually clients who are over 40 , they have quite a lot of shame over their kinks and just what responses I've had from them are the fact that it was still a taboo and they also just couldn't do anything about it and there wasn't any education and it was very shamed and shunned . And , yeah , I think shame definitely becomes the part of us that longs to be witnessed and it is terrified to be seen sometimes . But what I think somatica really does , it opens up so many doors and it can help trauma , it can help relationships , it can help just your inner self with so much yeah .

Speaker 2 35:34

You're like really pointing something really important about like how shame lives in the body and how much taboo we still have around sex . You're talking about your clients over 40 , but we saw in Virgin Island that everyone experienced shame around like sexuality , around being a virgin , around like not fitting in , and I think shame is a lot about this feeling that I don't fit in and we have such a big and I'm wrong , you know as if I'm wrong , and we have such a big and I'm wrong , you know as if I'm wrong , but we have such very narrow parameters societally about what is right . So it's like so many people feel like they're out of those parameters and they don't fit in and I really , I really feel like that's such an important thing to kind of realize that you're not . If you're feeling shame around who you are and your realize that you're not .

Speaker 2 36:22

If you're feeling shame around who you are and your desires , you're not alone . There's so many people . It's just become such a secret . You know their desires like going to hiding , and it feels like I'm not okay when actually so many people are walking around with those you know , interesting , spicy , cool , weird , but actually everyone is a little bit , like you know edgy with their desires . Um , in some ways , and I think that's like starting to see that that's what's actually the norm , that's that's the hard part , right , like to start to see this is the norm .

Speaker 1 36:57

The norm is that I have different desires than what is portrayed as the norm in , in social , you know , societally yeah , that that is um by um , what you would call vanilla clients that's a question which I get asked quite a lot , where it's like what is like your weirdest kink that you do and you've seen , and I'm I kind of roll my eyes at it because it's just like spanking could be weird to one person , whereas um , like jerk off instructions could be weird to another and it's just like chill like people always want to know the craziest thing .

Speaker 1 37:48

I'm like this isn't crazy .

Speaker 1 37:50

To me , this is just like freedom , this is just doing what you want to do and like enjoying yourself . I don't think me personally I don't think anything should be a taboo , and it's a shame that we're still growing up with the thoughts of shame and that it is still shunned and it is still a taboo and we still don't talk about it enough . Which is why I think the UK is so , so attracted to programs like Virgin Island , because we're just not used to it . And it's the reason why I love Channel 4 , because if you look into Channel 4 , they do so many documentaries and programs where it comes to like sex work , sex , kinky things , and I'm just like you go channel four like you'd be out there as the channel that people look for when they do want to find themselves where they do want to explore . And it's so great that we do have series like this and people like you guys , where it is just like enjoy your life , like we're not here for a long time , we're here for like a good time .

Speaker 3 39:03

So we were so excited when we because , you know , we have hoped to spread this method in a lot of different ways but when we were contacted by the British production company , we were really excited because what we felt about the rules in the UK and Channel 4 and the way that the production company handled it was that there was so much integrity and so much care for the people who came on the program and it created an opportunity where they really respected what we were doing and they wanted to document it honestly . So , you know , I know people are calling like reality TV , but I think a lot of times reality TV is often not documented Honestly , it's like staged , and this was an experience where these young folks were sincerely coming in and really , really wanted help and they really let us help them in the way that we know how to do . So I don't know , you know , like that was something that I thought that was particularly beautiful about the folks that we worked with in the UK .

Speaker 1 40:03

Oh , absolutely Me , I've . Actually I'll be on Channel 4 at some point this week or next week , I know . So I will be . We did a group interview , so we actually met channel four . They came to Scotland , which is where I am , and we did a lovely group interview of um it's about six other sex workers to discuss the Nordic model . So like I actually spoke to and talked to in person channel four , um , their , their whole team , and oh my God , they were so nice and so open and they really listened to , like our side of what is going on basically with the whole Nordic model , because Scotland right now they're trying to basically criminalize the buyers rather than the sellers and all that stuff . It's , it's lovely , it's lovely . We're very against it .

Speaker 1 41:06

But channel four , they were so lovely and like out of all the channels I was like I trust you guys , I trust you guys the most , but can you help us draw the line between humiliation , play and erotic shame ? I know there is a lot of confusion between them . What's the difference and what makes shame , play , safe or even healing ? Thank

Erotic Shame vs. Humiliation Play

Speaker 1 41:36

you .

Speaker 3 41:37

I mean , I feel like shame and humiliation play can both be healing . It depends , you know , on what your wound is and where you want to play . I feel like the shame when you play with shame you can kind of see what happens . Like the release of shame is like this redness in the body , you know . So if you get somebody and you touch just their shame in the way that turns them on the most , they will flush and turn red and you know there's this like amazing release that happens and I think probably some of those hormones that you were talking about in your earlier episode start to release and it's like this flood of , it's like embarrassment but excitement at the same time .

Speaker 3 42:16

Right , humiliation play is a little bit more like taking somebody and like putting them down on the ground and making them feel like they're the lowest of the low and for some people to be able to ask for that and to feel agency around , being like , yeah , I used to feel that way and it wasn't in my control , and now I'm feeling that way , but it's with a loving Dom who cares about me and they're doing it just perfectly the way that I want to want it to be done . You know if they're like you eat out of that bowl . You know , whatever the play is around humiliation , uh , that in some way it actually makes them feel powerful again because they are choosing it for themselves and that there's , that's that . You know arousal that comes from um getting to feel that complete sense of like being in that space again , but with somebody who really cares and and loves you .

Speaker 1 43:12

I mean that high that I get when I see somebody just go red in the face and like their smile is so good . It's like I've done my job , we're done , it's good you know , I think like it's .

Speaker 2 43:25

So . I don't think people realize how much actually power play and how much helping people work through their desires with agency . You know like sometimes replay these parts that were like so hurtful to them growing up , or like you know , with trauma and like play it with , because they're choosing to play it with a loving , loving partner that actually cares about them but gives them exactly what turns them on , how healing it is . I don't people look at it . It's like , oh my God , who are those people are doing ? It's like these are people actually smart , going for their healing process , wanting to play with this ? Components of the turn them on the most . And when I say healing , I don't mean that they will ever need to stop playing , that I feel like they're healing in every moment , that they can play what they play , and that's being normalized and accepted and celebrated . That's where healing happens , not when you're like supposed to be done with wanting to play what turns you on . That's not healing celebrate .

Speaker 1 44:26

Yeah , so on virgin island , you both held people in some incredibly raw states saying things um same things that never said out loud , revealing desires they still felt afraid of . What was it like for you Like ? Was there anything that did surprise you ?

Speaker 3 44:53

I think what we felt was just pure pride and joy at their bravery and their courage to say those things , and also just witnessing , like once they told their shame story and they threw their items into the fire . You saw this heaviness lifted off their bodies and I do feel like that is what shame does . It's like heavy and it's constricting . And then when you say you know what this is , you know I kept this necklace forever and I'm done with it now . Or I kept this diary forever and I'm done with it now that there it lifts and then , sort of , they can be more in their body , they can breathe , they feel more of their confidence and aliveness starts to move more . And you just saw it . You know every episode they became more and more alive and you know we recently got to go to an event where a bunch of them were there and you know we got to see them in their full aliveness and their gorgeousness and their beauty and their confidence and empowerment , and the transformation was profound .

Speaker 1 45:59

I mean that just sounds beautiful , profound . I mean that , that just sounds beautiful . So how do you know when someone is ready to explore themselves , basically the shame , humiliation , erotically and how do you recognize when they're still too deep in self-protection to go there safely ?

Speaker 2 46:24

Yeah , I think what we do is actually we don't assume , we like check consistently to see where they are .

Speaker 2 46:32

There's , like you know , in being a coach and I'm sure with your work as well there's something about like constantly your work as well .

Speaker 2 46:43

There's something about like constantly , like always , like playing with what is available and where we can just like take them one step forward in a safe way . So it's like an ongoing . That's kind of like honestly , like the craft is not not to push people too deep but also invite them for growth . And when people show up and they say I want to do this work , that's when they're ready , and then they might be ready for something , but not for everything , and we take them step by step into helping them see what they are ready for , because we really believe that this kind of growth we see it all the time with our clients and with the groups , the coaches we work with , training them , like how you like take the first step and then it already opens the door to the next step , and it opens the door to the next step Like growth is contagious . When you start on your journey , you just want to have more and I think like yeah , yeah , absolutely , I've lost my thought it's okay .

Speaker 3 47:47

I'm just like enjoying speaking with you . So much I really love the way you're thinking .

Speaker 1 47:53

I just love it because we need to be so much more open and less taboo , and it's it's so wonderful , genuinely , to have you guys on and just to spread all of this , because it's love , eventually it really is . It really is . So what ? What's one thing you wish everyone knew about their shame if they did have shame .

Speaker 3 48:25

That they're not alone . I feel like shame is one of those things that feels very isolating , and one of the things that we do in Somatica actually is something called a shame share , where everybody goes around and they share something that they feel shameful of . And it's one of the most connecting and profound experiences that people have in the training . Because when you realize , okay , everybody has their own shame . It might not be the same as me , but there's something about themselves that they feel that is not lovable and that they need to hide . And if anybody found out about it , then all is lost , you know , and they won't be able to be loved . And so when each person goes around and then everybody's just loving on them , even though they've just shared what they feel most shameful about , it's like completely transforms that experience . So really helping people know that they're not alone and that they won't be discarded if they share something about themselves that they , you know , feel afraid of sharing , that is a really huge healing around shame . Taking people out of isolation is the most important thing .

Speaker 1 49:32

Oh , absolutely yeah , and when it comes to slowly healing and growing , it does take time , which is something which I tried to tell my clients . Where this this is , this can be a long road for you and , like it can be rocky , and you need to understand that not everything's going to be peachy and you know we'll get there eventually , but there are loads of roads we do need to go down and explore and it definitely is , and can be , a long road of growth and self-exploration and it's beautiful . It really is beautiful , when you see that people find themselves and you see them smile and go red in the face and all be happy and it's so bliss you say it so well , victoria it is oh

Speaker 3 50:32

it is .

Speaker 1 50:34

It is so beautiful and like I get asked um a few times every now and again it's like like , oh , you've been doing it eight years , like , do you enjoy it ? And I'm like , yes , heck yes . And it's when it pays off . When you see that smile and it's like , yes , I will be here another week . Another thing we've hit on in a previous episode of mine is aftercare . So in another episode of mine we've spoken about um submissives having aftercare and even dominance having aftercare and how there's many , many different forms of aftercare . So for me

The Art of Repair in Intense Scenes

Speaker 1 51:16

, after I've had a scene with somebody , I usually , if I've domed that person , usually it's a lovely hot chocolate , cuddles in my lovely blanket , I'm watching a movie , and if I'm on the flip side , then usually it's like coloring books and cuddles , stuffies , all that stuff . Cuteness .

Speaker 3 51:48

I love what you say about doms needing aftercare too . Sometimes , you know , because I think a lot of times doms don't realize that they need aftercare and it's also really vulnerable , and sometimes doms have a harder time being vulnerable if they're not so much of a switch , and so for them I think it can be profoundly healing to it because it takes a lot of energy . I mean , I am too lazy to really be a very good dom myself . So more power to you for all the energy that you give . It's so generous actually to be a dominant , so I want to appreciate that about you and that when you give all that energy to be able to ask for some kind of care , that really acknowledges the effort that you put into being that caring and connected and taking that kind of leadership role . I think it's really really , really beautiful for doms to actually be able to receive that aftercare in that way when they've done , you know , something that I think is very , very generous and quite a feat actually .

Speaker 1 52:57

Absolutely . I mean the amount of times I've had clients come see me and I'm like , do you want aftercare ? And they're like what ? And I'm like let me explain , like let me , let me talk you through this , um . And then I've spoken to them about like different types of aftercare and like you can feel the drop a few hours or even like a few days afterwards as well , and it's another thing which does need to be spoken about because it is definitely there .

Speaker 2 53:29

Yeah , definitely , and we have different nervous systems . So some of us , I know , for me , like everything , whether I want it or not , comes through my body and takes it some time to empty out comes through my body and takes it some time to empty out so we can feel the drop , especially after that . That's intense rush of hormones that floods our nervous system so the aftermath of having a scene .

Speaker 1 53:55

So what kind of care do people need after erotic shame scenes , like really intense scenes ?

Speaker 3 54:06

I do feel like there can be . Oh , go ahead , danielle .

Speaker 3 54:08

Sorry that's fine , go ahead oh , I was just gonna say um and I think Danielle is kind of maybe indicating it there can be like a shame over , you know , and sometimes it doesn't come immediately .

Speaker 3 54:21

And so you know , if you're a dom and you're working with erotic shame with your sub , it's really important to actually tell them that , to say , you know , if we're playing with shame , it might feel really really good in this moment and there's all of these hormones that release , but maybe two days later you're like , oh my God , what did I show ? What did they see ? That's a shame over , because you have this kind of backlash of wow , I just showed off this very , very , very vulnerable part of myself . And even if my dom was like totally enthusiastic and happy and positive , I might have all sorts of dark thoughts come up , like maybe they were faking it and oh my God , do they really think that I'm okay ? So that actually , like talking about the fact that a shame over can come up and that you have a space , like if a shame over arises , that you're available to be there and talk to them and reassure them , that can be really really , really helpful , I think , as if you're playing with shame , because the shame is very tender , tender place .

Speaker 2 55:18

And I think the dom needs , might need , you know , some aftercare as well for bringing on this intense shame . Shame is also kind of contagious . What I mean by that ? Energetically contagious , it's not like it's really contagious , but it is in the space and omission of shame is really felt very intensely in the nervous system both of the DOM and the sub . So I think it's really important to be able to kind of maybe check in or reconnect later on and see like , oh , how are you doing ? You know not , and and the DOM , especially if you're doing professionally to have other people that you can go to to offload and get your nervous system regulated . And you know , maybe you need like I don't know take it out with boxing or scream it out or like cry it out and all of it is legit and fine . Like finding what is your way of releasing intensity is really important and then nourishing as well .

Speaker 3 56:21

Because intimacy work is really takes a lot of energy . You know , I think one of the things that has been amazing about Somatica and training all of these people is that we have this huge community of people who are there to kind of support each other in doing this really intense work . It sounds like , you know , you have a group of people who maybe were there with you on the Channel 4 interview , but we need that community . If we're doing this kind of emotional work and intimacy work and erotic work , we need to have people where we can be like , oh , that was so intense , to offload it and be like , you know , I was crying with my client or you know , we were in this very , very intense physical or emotional space and I had a little shame . And you know , can we talk about it ?

Speaker 3 57:05

To have places , like Danielle was saying , to go has been , you know , I think really , really helpful for our graduates to not feel like they're doing this work in isolation , because this kind of work can often be done in isolation because sexuality is such a taboo . Sometimes people don't want to tell their family or , you know , their friends or something like that . It depends . Some people really open and comfortable .

Speaker 1 57:26

Other people need more privacy and safety around these things , but it's still really important to have a community to support you oh yeah , absolutely community , this community where it comes to things that are taboo and things that need to be more out there . We need to be bigger . We need to be bigger . So much bigger . We're already better . We need to be bigger .

Speaker 3 57:54

There's a network everywhere , a network flowing through the whole world flowing through the whole world , exactly .

Speaker 1 58:07

So say , like you're in a scene and something like goes wrong . How are you meant to repair that wound which has happened during that scene with , yeah , whatever went wrong ?

Speaker 2 58:20

I know there's loads of different scenarios yeah , I think that , um , I think what maybe I want to say is like there's something about like expecting that things will go wrong . This idea that you won't do anything wrong is like unfathom . You know , like how likely we are not never do anything wrong . So learning repair skills is really important , like , really , if you're in the middle of a scene , stopping and checking in and saying like hey , what happened ? You know like what happened .

Speaker 2 58:51

Where are you , how you triggered , like what did bring inside you , and then like not be defensive but instead kind of like checking and seeing if there's something in them that you did , like copying to your part of it , you know , and also like talking , like removing the defensiveness from this space and being able to really listen and empathizing , and seeing what went wrong .

Speaker 2 59:17

Where did it hit the person . Because , like realizing that many times when people are being triggered in , especially in intense situations like that , but not only it's like it's not you know , you just hit something in them that's buried already for a long time and you just like stepped on it and woke it up . You know , even if you have the best intention , you might just do it . You can say a sentence is just not a good fit and that will do it , you know , you don't . It doesn't have to be like a horrible crime , you know what I mean . It's just like you touched something inside them . So learning the steps of repair and mastering it and even introducing it to your clients very early on as something like you know , like we might not , even if I'm a professional doing this work , that doesn't mean that I will know everything about you . So leaving room for this repair is really really reconnection and building empathy is really important , and I've been thinking about like the parenting .

Speaker 3 1:00:13

Like there's a real missing experience out there where somebody you know has had authoritarian parents or parents who would never come to them and say , hey , I made a mistake and own up to that , and so like to have a kind of an authority figure or a dom or a coach say to you you know , that went wrong and it wasn't all your fault and you know , like I can own the parts that I kind of messed up on . For them to have that experience and to be like , oh my God , I'm not always the one who's wrong and we're doing this together and we're on equal footing , like that can be very , very healing as well . So , you know , repair it's , it's good actually when things don't go perfectly , because having the experience of repair creates trust , it creates safety and it creates a deeper bond of like mutual respect . Okay , we we're , we're on the , we we're not in some sort of like I'm right , you're wrong relationship forever , where we are in like a team trying to keep learning and growing together yeah , absolutely .

Speaker 1 1:01:14

We're like we've where I've done a scene with somebody and then they've started crying and I'm like , are you good ? And they're that overwhelmed with emotion that they're in a safe space and they're essentially healing some little part and it's so beautiful . I can't exclaim enough how needed this is in so many ways . And another thing which I mention a lot in all my podcast episodes mostly , and also just in person as well , where it's um , you need to talk a lot , a lot of talking and a lot of communication . That is what I've learned that it's like um a bridge that if you don't communicate , that bridge will like slowly fall , basically , and little pieces will go missing . Like you can , you can heal it back and things um , but communication is such a key part .

Speaker 1 1:02:19

And one thing which I've also learned is when it comes to intensity , um , something um say , for example , in kink , I've had people come to me and they're like , oh , yeah , I really like this thing extreme .

Speaker 1 1:02:36

And then when I do it , they're're just like , oh , that was a little bit too extreme . And I'm like wait , what ? So ? Like there's so many different types of intensity and people think certain things in their minds where they think this is extreme or like it's not so extreme , and then you can just hit them with it and then it's just like oh , I actually like it this way or that way , especially when it comes to especially when it comes to when they've seen porn , it it . It really does put them in a real life situation , real life scene where they go oh , maybe , maybe I don't like this or I do like this , and it definitely needs to be more talked about and done . And , yeah , I'm very thankful for you two for coming on this episode and sharing all your knowledge and talking about somatica and what wonderful work you both have done thank you so much for having us .

Speaker 1 1:03:49

So this is where I will end the podcast episode . If you guys want to plug anything , um , if you , yeah , if you want to talk or anything you know , then you're more than welcome to . But yeah , I'm going to hand it over to you guys .

Speaker 2 1:04:08

Thank you . It was really lovely and I really appreciate you for the amazing work you're doing out there in the world . You really feel like you are doing it full of your heart . Your heart is doing the work , you like you , so your heart is so big to reduce shame out there in the world . But , uh , if you want to connect to our instagram and our you know like , do you want us to email ? Do you want us to announce it where to find us , or yeah , you can announce it .

Speaker 3 1:04:39

Yeah , absolutely okay good yeah yeah , um , so if you want to find us on instagram I'm not , I don't know the one , I don't actually know her social media I will do that if you want , but I'll talk about .

Speaker 2 1:04:53

I'll talk about the training . If you want to find us on , we would love for you to connect with us on Instagram it's Celeste and Danielle official , and on Tik TOK it's Celeste and Danielle . And also we have classes to help people figure out a little bit who they are in the erotic realm . So one of our great classes is like really finding what really turns you on and what your motivation going to sex , and we would love to link to that class , which is it is on learnsomaticacom .

Speaker 3 1:05:28

And also if you want to help people and have this absolute joy and amazing career where you , where you get to see people blossom and bloom and they're like you know , you see all the shame release and then fully own themselves , you can go to somaticainstitutecom and study to become a coach in the method right .

Speaker 1 1:05:49

Thank you very , very much for coming on behind the paddle podcast

Closing Thoughts on Reclaiming Shame

Speaker 1 1:05:53

. It's been so good . I'm so happy . That's gonna be so great editing it thank you for having us .

Speaker 2 1:06:00

Yeah , and honestly , you know like I love what you're doing in the world and we have lots of people that are actually doing . You know professional doms that are taking the training just because they feel like it's just an add-on tools . You're doing a lot of amazing work already , clearly , so if people feel like they need more training , that's like a good place to get training I mean you might as well put it underneath your belt .

Speaker 1 1:06:29

It makes sense , it really does . It's just , it's another like little sticker on the chart .

Speaker 2 1:06:35

Yeah , and it's like such responsible work . You know like you hold so much responsibility . When you like , dive deeper like that with people's psyche and their turn ons . It's really , it's really deep .

Speaker 1 1:06:47

Yeah , you're in control , in a way of like another person . You're observing them , you're with them , like you are , as you said , before you're entwined . You're like you are there together and you're both in with the scene . And yeah , absolutely .

Speaker 3 1:07:11

Thank you .

Speaker 2 1:07:12

Thank you .

Speaker 1 1:07:14

Thank you very much . We are taught to be ashamed before we are taught to desire , and so often our erotic lives become a balancing act between longing and silence , between what we ache for and what we were told we should never want . But shame , when witnessed , when held , when eroticised , becomes something else . It becomes sovereignty . Today we invited shame to the centre of the room . We looked it into the eye , we heard it breathe , we asked it what it wanted and for some of us , for maybe the most time , we didn't try to shut it down . He said tell me more . My deepest thanks , celeste .

Speaker 1 1:08:14

Hirschman and Dr Danielle Harrell , whose work through the somatic method and Virgin Island reminds us that the erotic is never clean , never linear and never too much , never , ever . If this episode stirred something in you shame , grief , desire , possibility I want you to know that reaction matters . You matter . Everything you feel matters . Your body knows things . Even your words don't yet know how to say . You don't have to get rid of your shame , you just have to stop exiling it and maybe , if you're ready , to invite it into the scene . So I'm Falsom Victoria and this has been Behind the Bottle podcast . I'm so excited . I really hope you guys have enjoyed this episode as much as I have enjoyed it . So , yeah , if you like this episode , please leave a like , please go rate us on Spotify , apple , wherever you're listening . It is very much appreciated . Thank you so so much , and definitely go check out Virgin Islands and go check out their training courses as well . Bye .