Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello and welcome back to Behind the Paddle Podcast, and we're posting Victoria. We are going to carry on reading Revolting Prostitutes the Fight for Sex Workers' Rights by Molly Smith and Juno Mack, and I also didn't realise that we literally have just under five pages to go of this book, which is crazy. Yeah, so let's go. The terrorism that is practiced by the man and by individual men. Be wary of liberalism. It is not enough to consider yourself an ally of sex workers If your politics remain amid offence of quote equality and respect or the freedom quote equality and respect or the freedom quote to do with one's body as one wishes. Not that there is anything objectionable about ideas like this. In homes and works places, benign rhetoric about stigmatized and outcast groups being quote just like everyone else can be an effective antidote to social ostracism. Representation is also a powerful political tool. A blockbuster movie with a relatable sex worker character could go a long way in fighting a cultural fondness for quote dead hooker jokes. At any level, tackling stigma against sex workers is crucial work. However, those who support sex workers, and indeed even some sex workers, often understand the struggle to be only about fighting stigma, better representation, achieving quote acceptance and securing respect for what we do do.

Speaker 1: 2:10

When swedish sex worker and activist, jasmine, whom we discussed in chapter two, was stabbed to death by the father of her children, her death triggered a protest outside the swedish embassy in london. Sex workers gathered to raise awareness about their opposition to the sex laws with signs saying quote stigma kills. Stigma did, of course, kill her. Her killer stigmatised her as worthless and disposable, as many women are stigmatised, but this is only part of the picture. At the time of her death, jasmine had been locked in an an acrimonious dispute with her former partner to regain custody of her children, who had been removed from her and given to her abusive ex-partner on the grounds that she was an unfit mother In the eyes of Swedish social workers. Her job as an escort was evidence for this assessment. By giving the children to him, the state aggravated the situation, forcing Jasmine to continue to meet with him in order to see her children. It was during one of these meetings that he fatally stabbed her. It's not enough to locate the blame for Jasmine's death solely in the violence of her ex-partner or to dismiss it as unrelated to prostitution law, as some feminist commentators have. He murdered her, but in a context where the state of Sweden ignored and tactically condoned his history of violence. Jasmine's life and death show how misogyny and oppressive state mechanisms work in tandem.

Speaker 1: 4:02

Ending violence against women requires interrogating the full extent of how it operates. Everyone can understand a loaded gun and the damage it can cause, but who has the license to carry the gun? Who can use it with impunity? When and why were they bestowed this power? These things are just as important as the murderous intentions of the person pulling the trigger. We must tackle gender-based violence at a human level and find a different strategy for you, pending the systems that underpin it, and some of these solutions will overlap. It is crucial to understand the symbiotic coexistence of these mechanisms and not divert all attention to one quote. Fix Representation is a feminist issue, and campaigns to get women into boardrooms, into government cabinets and onto banknotes are all very well.

Speaker 1: 5:15

For some, the link from representation to stigma or respect is clear. The symbol of the woman as president may well help someone look more credible as the only woman on a board of directors, but all this is ineffectual without a material analysis of working class lives. To only examine the way sex workers are represented in society instead of the mechanisms of their oppression is their politics of gesture. We could see sex workers fighting stigma by starring in netflix, living in the White House or even appearing on banknotes. But without real legislative and economic change, the most marginalized people would continue to hide from cop cars in the shadows, sleep on the streets and languish in prison cells and detention centres. Power to prostitute women all over the world. Power to all women.

Speaker 1: 6:30

At the beginning we said this book would not be a personal memoir or a tale of empowerment. Empowerment is a word that comes up a lot in discussions of sex work. It is overused to the point of satire, often in media depictions of middle class sex workers to talk about sexual rebellion, the thrill of sudden cash or the so-called free choice of the individual to sell sex. These flippant conversations frame having sex for money as an inherently empowering thing. This liberal perspective that one's person's ability to profit off of their own sexual objectification can magically overturn the status quo for all leaves many feminist critics dubious. Quo for all leaves many feminist critics dubious. We too are critical of glib descriptions of empowerment or choice. Whilst it is up to each sex worker to describe their own experiences and knowing that such arguments are often a defensive response to stigma. We share the view of other feminists who observe that prostitution is genuinely contextualized by a lack of choices, not an abundance.

Speaker 1: 8:00

Quote empowerment is a red herring. We see it deployed as clickbait in headlines like quote is sex work empowering or enslaving? Quote I became an escort to empower myself, but it only crushed my soul. Quote it happened to me. I was an escort for eight, eight years, believing it would empower me and it didn't. Or quote sex worker and mother yes, I am empowered by my job. These invocations of personal feelings distract from a far more complicated conversation about colonialism, capitalism and patriarchy. Unfortunately for sex workers, the push to bring these structures back into focus often seems to come with a side order. Critics of quote choice feminism almost inadvertently escalate towards scathing judgment in which the work prostitutes do is quote, not real work.

Speaker 1: 9:30

Economic arguments for their strategies are not only not radical, but conceptual or traitorous. Journalist megan murphy writes quote your freedom to make quote choices may well represent your feelings of personal empowerment in your own life, but in no way does this liberate anyone but you and in fact, your quote choice may exist at the expense of another woman's operation. This type of statement is rarely applied to women's quote choice to take jobs, propping up the carceral state. One anti-prostitution feminist, for example, takes to the familiar confessional mode to offer up an essay which could easily have been titled quote it happened to me. I love jail and you will too. End quote. The essayist writes that her experiences quote thankfully led me to jail, adding quote I never expected that jail would be my saving grace. Now I hope to make it the same for more victims like me. End quote. At the end of the essay, it is revealed that the author now works as a prosecutor.

Speaker 1: 10:48

When sex workers write these kinds of personal essays quote I sold foot porn to fund my way through college they are inadvertently told quote it may have been okay for you, but do I really think your experience is representative? Think of the women harmed in this system. End quote. If ever an essay was crying out for such a response, surely it is this glowing review of arrest and jail. Review of arrest and jail.

Speaker 1: 11:28

However, mainstream feminism seems more comfortable asking these questions of cam girls than of prosecutors. Sex workers are subject to disproportionate scapegoating. In this regard. One ostensibly feminist anti-prostitution organisation suggests that prostitution causes significant environmental damage, highlighting sex workers' use of medications, presumably oral contraceptives and make-up makeup. By contrast, we do not see such widespread contempt for feminists who seek to navigate the patriarchal marriage contract as best they can. Nor should we. Not everyone has the resources to tear down the institution of marriage as an institution that is shaped by women's economic needs in much the same way that prostitution is.

Speaker 1: 12:31

Sex workers, who do not appear in glossy magazines, sometimes define the ability to migrate away from poverty, to say no to loan sharks, to go to night school or to securely leave an abuser as, quote, empowerment. Instead of wrangling over whether the individual triumphs of sex workers over adversity constitute quote real feminism, we should be asking a more useful question what has taken power away from them? How can they reclaim it? The most potent source of untapped power for sex workers is not sexual liberation, social rebellion or even, but solidarity. The sex worker community is expanding rapidly as people wake up to the potential of standing shoulder to shoulder. Quote for three years I lived a divided life the life of a woman and the life of a prostitute, says Barbara, co-leader of the sex worker church occupation in Loin, france that launched the modern sex worker movement. Quote and one day, in 1975, I realized by talking to others, it could no longer go on end, quote.

Speaker 1: 14:00

When news of the Loin occupation broke, sex workers all over France were inspired. Over the following week, they occupied churches in Paris, marisal, grenoble, saint-étienne and Montpellier. The idea that a prostitute being abused by the police one day could forcibly take over a church with dozens of friends. The next was exhilarating and hopeful. Quote none of us will go to prison, the protesters fearlessly proclaimed. Quote the police will have to massacre us in the church.

Speaker 1: 14:39

In the same decade, but half a world away, brazilian prostitute Gabriela Leite was similarly inspired into action. After her friend was murdered by a policeman in 1978, she began speaking publicly about life on the streets. She hitchhiked alone around Brazil to enact her vision of a movement of putas revolutionary, persuading those she met in the streets and in brothels to get organized, to refuse to be brought to heel, to transform repression into rage and to be the protagonists of their own stories. Nobody will give us power not the police, not our bosses, not our clients. Power is always won. We need to take what's owed to us, as activists like Gabriella and Barbara demonstrated four decades ago. They knew then what the movement knows now that being deprived of the chance to speak is not voicelessness. 40 shouting sex workers protesting deportations outside a government building are easy to hear. 100 sex workers blockading traffic are easy to see. Sex workers have been made to listen. Now it is our turn to speak. We are not waiting to be invited into the feminist movement. We have always been here.

Speaker 1: 16:22

In 1977, black women for wages for housework stated that, quote, part of the work of being a prostitute is to be made an example of what it costs us to refuse the poverty the man forces us to live in to be a whip against other women end quote. The threat of being quote treated like a whore compels women to keep their distance from us. But the way a whore fights the power is of value to everyone. The politics of prostitution should not be a feud between women, but a collaboration. As much as we all do, sex workers want a better future, one where everyone gets their fair share of resources and where survivors can access healing and justice. We want a future where feminist revolt and resistance is uplifted by the brazen spirit of the prostitute who demands to be safe, to be paid and to be heard. In the words of black women for wages for housework, quote when prostitutes win, all women win.

Speaker 1: 17:42

Okay, okay, so I will read out the acknowledgements, because they need to be read. Let's be honest we owe so much to our community and such debts are incredibly joyful things to have and to acknowledge. So many people have taught us and supported us in many ways, both during the writing of this book and in terms of forming our politics over almost the last decade. First thanks should go, perhaps, to luca, who brought both of us into the community to begin with and who does and has done a staggering amount of work, much of it unseen, to ensure that there is a sex worker community in the UK. Thank you to Joe Breeze and to the new baby Breeze, who sat in with us in fetus mode throughout much of the process, for putting in place a structure that enabled us to find this project, that enabled us to finish this project. It is not exaggeration to say we truly might never have completed this work if it were not for you, joe. Thank you to frankie mulligan for your unwavering support, friendship and insight. To Melissa Gia Grant for your encouragement, comments and inspirational work. To Chloe for so much, but particularly for your Magdalene laundries insights and your lasagna. Thank you to Charlotte Shane for your writing and sisterly love. Thank you to Nikki, laura, kari, sarah and all the ECP women. Your strength, community and unwavering fight for sex workers are a beacon of love.

Speaker 1: 19:50

So many people, including many names we have already mentioned, read all or part of the draft manuscript and gave us comments. Thank you so much to everyone who did. Your insights, encouragement and sometimes tough corrections helped us more than we can say. Any errors that remain are, of course, our own. Any errors that remain are, of course, our own. Thank you to Emily Delora Warfield and to Zoe Samatsi, to Jen Clamin and to PJ Starr. Thank you to Emmett Estaham, hamish Allen, alison Pipps, sarah Woolley, meg John Barker, britt Skolt, justin Hancock, sarah Dorman, sammy William and Natalie Huntley-Clark, claire Havel and Hollis Robin. Thank you to Tom Peters and Tom Sissons, who optimism and encouragement provided two shoves in the right direction.

Speaker 1: 21:00

Thank you to ray filler for your support and for the brilliant time we had with you in wiltshire. Thank you to ash for listening to free trips worth of sex workers rights chatter. Thank you to everyone at scott pep, particularly stew, stacy, fiona raven, george jewel, jamie lily and fran. Thank you to everyone at swarm to for your delightful comments on the draft which, as you know we loved comments on the draft, which, as you know, we loved justin, nina bridget, minamore, aizling, gallagher, makita, rose clark, naomi, beecroft and nell. Thank you to lilith browsers for your invaluable help with quote a charmed circle.

Speaker 1: 22:24

Thank you to everyone who was on the lackett retreat, particularly eleanor newman beckett for your critical role embodying our ideal reader. Thank you to April, alice and Devin for being there, and thank you to Jennifer Moore, whose gentle friendship and sticklerish nature has undoubtedly made us better people and whose kind attention to this book has sharpened and clarified our work in so many ways. Thank you to Tash for your incredible help with the. You know what. Love and gratitude to Laura Lee, who tragically died while we were in the process of completing this work. Your unwavering and tireless advocacy for sex workers is an inspiration and you remain deeply missed and often thought of.

Speaker 1: 23:25

Thank you to everyone whose writing, thinking and work has contributed so much to our thinking and understanding. Thank you in this regard to Sarah Mann, to Charlotte Cooper, to Sophie Buckland, to Marimi Kaba, to Laura Augustine, to Peach, to Wendy Loyne, to Rennie Eddo-Lodge, both for your work in general and for your gentle and timely suggestion that we could write a book To Nick Mai, to Cherry Scharfhauser, to Chi Adana McBarco, to Jay Levy and to Julia O'Connell Davidson. Thank you to Cara Lee, gail Feterson and to Nikki Roberts. Thank you to Katty Simon and the entire Tits and Sass team. The work you do maintaining a space for in-depth, complex conversations is extraordinary. Profound thanks to the Global Sex Workers Rights Movement, which is organising every day to transform the world for the better and to which we owe an immense debt. Thank you to everyone at verso who have been unwaveringly supportive and encouraging. Particular thanks, of course, to rosie warren and sarah gray, who have been amazingly attentive, patient and kind editors. Thank you to the open society foundations, whose decision to give us a grant for this project gave us the irreplaceable gift of time. Our thanks go to Dean and James, whose support, both material and emotional, have been truly incalculable. Thank you both. So so much.

Speaker 1: 25:25

Now that is the end of Revolt and Prostitutes. Thank you so much for reading this with me. As I said, I started this so I could honestly read to myself, and this is what this little journey has been for me actually accomplishing reading a book, because I don't read that often, but I want to learn more about sex work, about lgbtq plus about migrants. I want to learn about everything I really do, so thank you for listening. Thank you for being on this little journey with me.

Speaker 1: 26:08

It made it so much more easier, weirdly, to set up a podcast series about reading a particular book and seeing that there were other people who wanted to listen, and that was really cool, thank you. Thank you so much and I'm gonna put a poll on my Instagram. I've already got a few books coming and a few books with me. Um, right now, what, um, what we're gonna read next? And yeah, you guys can pick between yourselves.

Speaker 1: 26:48

And yeah, I loved, honestly, reading revolt and prostitutes. I think it opens up a lot of eyes for people about what is really happening and I think, after my own story, we've been charged with brothel keeping and, thankfully, getting that case dismissed. As much as I wanted to stand up on the stand and shout and rave and protest um, it is a relief in a way, but going through that and not understanding, but being able to relate a little bit with the struggles of what sex workers go through, it's not comforting it like it shouldn't be, like we shouldn't get used to being bossed around, being stood on. We need to say no, this is enough and we're not doing it. So yeah, this has been Pulse of Victoria at Behind Nevada Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, then please leave a review. You can do stars on Spotify, apple and yeah, what else is there? Oh yeah, you can find us on Instagram at Behind Nevada Podcast, and I think that's it bye.