Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello and welcome back to Behind the Banner Podcast with me, pawsome Victoria. So we're going to continue reading how to Be you by Ellie Middleton. I know last time in the first episode I said, um, camellia Pang, yeah, no, that's another. Like that's like a review on the book. And yeah, that's what I saw, even though I've looked at this book a million times because I've always I've wanted to read it for the past month, like, yeah, so, yeah, it's by Ellie Middleton. So we're gonna start with white supremacy.

Speaker 1: 0:51

White supremacy as defined by leila f saad in her incredibly powerful book me and white supremacy how to recognize your privilege, combat racism and change the world Is quote a racist ideology based upon the belief that white people are superior in many ways to people of other races and that therefore, white people should be dominant over any other race. Saad, who, since writing Me and White Supremacy, has discovered her own neurodivergence later in life, goes on to explain that institutions are structured to uphold this white dominance. End quote. Many people incorrectly believe that white supremacy is a belief only held by far-right extremists, but in reality, it is a racist and harmful undercurrent that runs through all white-centered or western societies and therefore informs our norms, rules and laws. In 1999, tema Okikun published an article called quote white supremacy culture, which listed 15 characteristics that she and her late colleague, kenneth Jones believed define and shape our society. This article has since been updated and expanded, and the characteristics that Okikun outlines explain the way that these white supremacy characteristics impact the way that humans are behaving, living and functioning in western society. As I'm sure you will see, these ways of behaving and functioning are very closely related to our earlier list of executive functioning skills and therefore have a huge impact on what we consider to be quote normal. Below is a list of some of the key characteristics that affect our overarching relationship with what we deem to be quote normal executive functioning versus executive quote dysfunction, and you will also meet some more of Akihiko's characteristics throughout the rest of the book as we dig a little more deeply into each of the executive functions. As you read through the characteristics, it might be helpful to reflect or make notes on the ways that these characteristics show up for you or the times that you have experienced them in action in other people's behavior. It is really important that we identify the ways that white supremacy affects our society and to remember that you are not alone and that we are all impacted by these ways of being. When we begin to identify the basis that have shaped our society, or the quote shoulds that have been imposed upon us, we can let go of them and find ways of working, functioning and behaving that work better for each of us, both as individuals and as collective fear.

Speaker 1: 4:30

In white supremacy culture, we are made to feel afraid. We fear not being good enough, not feeling accepted, not belonging and not doing things right. This characteristic is an undercurrent throughout all of the other characteristics and informs the way that we behave and make decisions, because we are always desperately trying to avoid the quote bad thing that we would be the result of not doing as we're supposed to, whether that is perceived. Perceived failure, ostracization or any other consequence. How fear influences how we feel we quote should behave. We often feel that we must behave, work or function in the ways deemed quote normal or we will be criticized or ostracized. Our society imposes a constant fear of failure or of not being good enough, which might lead us to assign more value to the ways that we function, eg our productivity levels, putting more pressure on us to work in a certain way. We fear the consequences of not being able to function or, quote, do things in the way that other people can, and so often work incredibly hard behind the scenes to keep up appearances.

Speaker 1: 6:01

Two perfectionism Perfectionism is the belief that things can be done perfectly, or that people can be brackets and should aim to be perfect, based on a socially constructed standard for perfection reinforces white supremacy culture, because while we are focused on working towards quote perfection, whatever perfect means, our energy and attention are being used up, and so we might never get the chance to stop and ask ourselves why we're working so hard towards this so-called perfection, which is mostly just to keep perpetuating our white supremacy, capitalist culture, ie to realize that this benefits the white supremacy culture that we are living in. Perfection is something. Perfection is also something that is seen as a fixed point to strive towards or a destination to arrive at brackets, although we never quite seem to get there. Rather than recognizing that this endless pursuit is pointless, as we are all born perfect. How perfectionalism influences how we feel we, quote, should behave. An emphasis on perfectionalism means that we're always striving to be more productive or achieve more things, rather than accepting that we're just the way we are, and instead questioning the system's place. As a society, we constantly push ourselves to our limits to improve or grow, even when it doesn't suit us, which means that we assign a disproportionate amount of significance capabilities like organization or prioritization. It encourages us to see things in a very black and white way, which means that we might think that if we are not quote perfect, then we have outright failed, rather than acknowledging that there is no such thing as perfect and that quote good is good enough.

Speaker 1: 8:30

Three one right way linked to perfectionism. One right way is the belief that there is one correct way to do something and any divergence or difference from that is seen to be quote bad or wrong. Okikun compares this to how a missionary might arrive in a new culture and only see value in their own beliefs and try to quote convert the people they meet to these personal beliefs, rather than acknowledging any value in the culture that is different from their own. For me, this reminded me of how, in maths exams at school, you were given marks for quote working out that led you to your answer, and if you hadn't used the techniques that had been taught in the curriculum, you could lose marks even when you're getting the correct answer.

Speaker 1: 9:27

As someone whose brain has often diverged from the quote right way of doing things and who doesn't value social constructs in the same way that most people might. I have definitely felt the effects of one right way. How one right way influences how we feel we quote should behave. One right way causes us to think that we have to do things quote the way they have always been done, even if that way doesn't suit our brains. This forces us to work against our brains natural ways of thinking, functioning and processing. We are held to neuro-normative ways of living and doing things, rather than appreciating that everyone has different ways of working, behaving, thinking and being. Society often tells us that we quote, just have to get on with it, and frequently deters us from questioning the established ways of doing things.

Speaker 1: 10:33

4. Paternalism Paternalism tells us that certain people, brackets, often of a specific age, gender and race, namely older white men. Older white men are the ones who hold power and therefore get to define what is quote perfect or quote the right way. They also get to make decisions on behalf of the people who don't hold the same power. They do and might not think that it is important or necessary to consider other people's thoughts, beliefs, viewpoints or experiences. Think of when you would ask your parents something as a child and their answer would be quote because I said so. Paternalism feels very apparent in the UK government at the time of writing, winter 2023. Government at the time of writing, winter 2023, as a small number of people in the Tory leadership continue to make decisions in parliament regarding foreign affairs, immigration benefits, transport, social support and many other things which don't seem to in in any way reflect the needs, benefits or wants of the majority of the population, which the government was designed to serve. Paternalism means that those without power are kept in the dark about decision-making processes, even when they are the people who will most feel the impact of those decisions.

Speaker 1: 12:12

How paternalism influences how we feel we quote should behave. As they explore in Unmasked, the diagnostic criteria for many neurodivergences, including both autism and ADHD, are based on research done on almost exclusively young white cis boys. This research, including the ways we define what is quote functional and quote dysfunctional, was completed by a very small number of psychiatrists, brackets, most of whom were middle-class white, educated men, and is seen as definitive and final, rather than just one opinion. Psychiatrists and medical professionals, brackets, who are often neurotypical, often hold all the power in defining what is quote normal versus normal versus what is quote disordered and what the quote treatment or solution for the quote disordered behavior should be, rather than that power being in the hands of the person themselves. In extreme cases, this can lead to many autistic people, for example, being institutionalized against their will for not being able to behave in the ways that have been categorized as quote normal.

Speaker 1: 13:38

5. Either slash or and the binary Either slash or thinking defines the way that many things in our society are seen in a very black and white way. We see something as either good or bad or right or wrong. In reality, the vast majority of things people, decisions and options in life are incredibly nuanced. And options in life are incredibly nuanced and a combination of both good and bad or right and wrong. Either or thinking causes us to simplify issues which are actually very complicated and nuanced, like assuming that someone who steals is always and categorically a quote bad person, when in reality, they might be stealing in order to feed their family and be unemployed due to being marginalized by multiple systems of oppression. How either slash or influences how we feel we quote should behave, since things are seen as good or bad, or right or wrong. Any divergence from quote normal ways of functioning is seen as inherently bad, slash wrong. Support needs or differences are seen in a very either or way. People are considered to be either quote normal or quote having executive dysfunction, with no in between, which neglects the nuanced and complex nature of spiky profiles Brackets. More on this in my first book, unmasked and how our needs and differences might change day to day or over the course of time. This means that those who are higher masking or have generally lower support needs might not be able to access support. The binary way of thinking encourages us to see people as either completely fine or unable to do anything. If you aren't seen to be struggling enough to qualify for unable to do anything, then you therefore are seen as being quote completely fine and require no support.

Speaker 1: 16:09

Six defensiveness In white supremacy culture, defensiveness explains the way that we might not be open to any questioning, criticism or curiosity and that we might value protecting the status quo brackets or a person's best interests instead of searching for the truth or best outcome. For example, if somebody raises concerns in a company about racial microaggressions, a leader might jump to defending themselves and denying that they are racist rather than actually looking into the claims or trying to resolve them. This characteristic means that things are often stuck quote the way they have always been done, rather than people or organizations being open to change or new ways of thinking. How defensiveness influences how we feel we quote should behave. In defensive society, we see any form of questioning as a threat, rather than valuing curiosity and challenging the status quo as an effective way to find better outcomes. This means that we are forced to stick to the way that things have always been done, which might mean functioning and working in ways that aren't necessarily best suited for our brains, rather than being able to challenge and question these norms in search of positive change. When we get stuck in defensive ways of thinking, when we get stuck in defensive ways of thinking, individuals might be less open to finding new, better and more inclusive ways of working. We see any divergence from the norm as a bad thing, and so people might not want to acknowledge their differences or struggles and therefore not access, support or explore their own neurodivergence.

Speaker 1: 18:13

7. Denial Denial is an extension of defensiveness, which describes the way that people or organizations will jump to denying any accusations of wrongdoing rather than taking the time to explore or consider the claims they might refuse to consider or acknowledge history or say outright that genuine claims are simply not true, how denial influences how we feel we quote should behave. Companies or employers might deny that current ways of working are unhelpful or damaging for those of us whose brains function differently and so be reluctant to make any changes. The same could even occur within families, where parents are in denial that the ways they were parented had room for improvement and so carry on the same unhelpful or damaging patterns with their children. Often, challenges themselves are actually denied outright, with people thinking that people are quote making them up or just quote not trying hard enough. Often, challenges themselves are often denied outright, with people thinking that people are quote making them up or just quote not trying hard enough. People might deny or refuse to believe that the way we have historically pathologicalized any deviation from the quote norm ways of behaving, thinking, functioning or being has been harmful to women and people marginalized for their gender, people of color and disabled and neurodivergent people. This means that marginalized people continue to be labeled, pathologicalized, ostracized, institutionalized and even incarcerated simply for being different, rather than us as a society understanding that difference is simply part of human nature. Part of human nature.

Speaker 1: 20:34

8. Right to comfort. This characteristic explains the way that in western culture, individuals often feel as though they have a right to feel comfortable, whether that is emotional support or psychological comfort. One major example we see of this is in the way that when horrific atrocities are happening across the world, many people choose to disengage from the news or social media narrative because watching or hearing about the events taking place makes us feel uncomfortable or uneasy. Us feel uncomfortable or uneasy. Well, this is very nuanced and we all need to protect our mental health to some degree. Being able to disengage at all is a huge privilege and we should learn to question whether our right to comfort takes precedence over our responsibility to do the right thing. How right to comfort influences how we feel. We quote should feel quote should behave.

Speaker 1: 21:35

In a world where those in power are led to believe that their comfort is a right, they are less inclined to accommodate others in a way which might affect that level of comfort by demanding energy or different ways of working from them. For example, in a typical office setting, they might refuse to share written rather than verbal instructions, as they feel this adds more to their workload. Prioritising comfort might lead to some individuals, eg those who are benefiting from current ways of working, to resist changes or adaptations or adaptations necessary to accommodate those who struggle with executive functioning. The idea that we have a quote right to comfort can contribute to a reluctance to address systemic issues which neurodivergent people or those who do things differently might face barriers. Individuals are likely to prioritize their personal comfort and therefore overlook the need for systemic changes in education, workplaces or social environments.

Speaker 1: 22:58

9. Power hoarding. As the name suggests, a key part of white supremacy culture is that the vast majority of the power is held by a small group of people and there is no real interest from that group in sharing any of their power. Power is seen as a finite resource with only so much to go around. This can lead to those who do hold power feeling threatened when anyone suggests changes in how things should be done. We can see this hierarchy and structure throughout society. For example, a CEO being reluctant to share power within their business or a father wanting to maintain power in a patriarchal family unit. How power hoarding influences how we feel we quote should behave In workplaces.

Speaker 1: 24:01

An autistic person questioning why something is done a certain way or why something has been asked of them in an attempt to gain clarity and understanding. Might brackets incorrectly be accused of questioning authority and therefore be viewed as a threat or a disruptor and face challenges as a result? The quote power of deciding what is deemed quote normal versus quote disordered typically lies with psychiatrists or other health professionals. Rather than each individual being able to define what is normal for them, those with power in organizations or workspaces might assume that those wanting change, ie to be accommodated for their executive functioning differences or to implement new, more inclusive policies, are ill-informed, emotional or inexperienced, rather than considering that they could be right. As I'm sure you will have noticed while reading through these white supremacy characteristics, many of them match up closely with the ways we have been told are quote right way to do things. We have been told are the quote right ways to do things and therefore define what is considered quote normal executive functioning versus executive quote dysfunction, as sony jane wise they them explains in their book we're all neurodiverse, quote. We need to recognize executive functioning as a set of neuro normative standards and expectations that are unrealistic for many individuals. I don't believe we can do that without unpacking, deconstructing and challenging white supremacy culture". You will see more of Temo Akanzu's characteristics of white supremacy throughout the book as we dig further into each individual executive functioning skill and I would also strongly recommend that you do further reading on white supremacy in order to better understand the way that it shapes our society and following resources are often the following resources are a fantastic starting point me and white supremacy how to recognize your privilege, combat racism and change the world by leila f saad. Why I'm no longer Talking to White People About Race by Reni Edo-Lodge. Dismantling Racism a Workbook for Social Change Groups by Kenneth Jones and Temu Akanzu.

Speaker 1: 27:03

Patriarchy Another system of oppression that defines the way we all think about executive functioning is patriarchy. Patriarchy, as defined by Professor Sylvia Walby, obe, professor of Criminology at Royal Holloway University of London, is a quote system of social structures and practices in which men dominate, oppress and exploit women. It is a social system predominantly defined by men, in which men hold a privileged position. Much of Western society is defined by patriarchy. In the UK alone, women carry out around 60% more unpaid work than men, spending more time on cooking, cleaning and childcare. Spending more time on cooking, cleaning and childcare In Unmasked.

Speaker 1: 28:00

I wrote a chapter called quote the lost generation, in which I explained the ways that our patriarchal systems have a huge impact on the number of women and people marginalized for their gender who remain undiagnosed, misdiagnosed or late diagnosed for autism, adhd and other neurodevelopmental conditions and neurodivergencies. Research has suggested that 80% of autistic women remain undiagnosed at the age of 18, while another study found that boys were diagnosed with autism at the average age of four years old. This is thought to be down to the fact that the research initially undertaken into autism, as well as ADHD and other neurodivergencies, was majorly based on studies of young white cis boys. Studies of young white cis boys. Kanner, one of the earliest researchers into autism, studied eight boys and three girls, while two other early researchers, asperger's and Sukhareva, worked with all male samples. Hans Asperger even stated that he had quote never met a girl with the fully fledged picture of autism. This meant that the research that followed also mostly had all male samples, because the stereotype had been created that girls or women and people marginalized for their gender just quote weren't autistic.

Speaker 1: 29:33

This being said, our lack of access to a timely and accurate diagnosis of autism, adhd and other neurodivergencies isn't the only way we, as neurodivergent people and those who have differences in their executive functioning skills, are impacted by patriarchy. As Gina Martin. She her campaigner, speaker and author of no Offence but how to have Difficult Conversations for Meaningful Change explains. As bell hooks name it, imperialist, white supremacist, capitalist patriarchy is the social system built by cis elite men. They built systems, institutions and processes for themselves, excluding people who weren't men and who experienced any kind of neurodivergence or disability. So it's not at all surprising that neurodivergent folks, especially marginalized ones, built out their own constellations of tricks, mechanisms and systems to navigate what these men built, from homes and domestic expectations to exam halls and the education system. What was created was ultimately to form a labour class which upheld optimisation, self-assertion and elite capitalism.

Speaker 1: 31:09

When it comes to ADHD, we know girls are diagnosed much less or later than boys. We know girls are diagnosed much less or later than boys, in part because of society's biases and assumptions about emotions and how we heavily gender them. Girls are socialized to be agreeable, small and facilitating, which is a masking of its own kind, and that plays heavily into how well they learn to mask their neurodivergence at such an early age. Emotional dysregulation is sometimes seen as quote normal in girls because of our sexist stereotypes about girls being hysterical, dramatic or overly emotional. So you can see that patriarchy is feeding directly into how we deal with neurodivergency, in the same way that Tima Okikun broke down white supremacy into a list of characteristics that we explored earlier in the chapter that we explored earlier in the chapter, professor Walby argues that patriarchy operates through six unique structures which, as you will see, affect how we define what is quote normal executive functioning and, conversely, what we consider to be quote dysfunctional.

Speaker 1: 32:33

Similarly to how we delved into each of the characteristics of white supremacy culture above, I'm going to share four of these structures, explain their meaning in my own words and explore the ways these have impacted the societal standards, norms and expectations held around executive functioning Brackets. The remaining structures that I won't include are male violence and patriarchal relations in sexuality. Both are very real and have very serious implications. However, male violence isn't directly linked to our views on quote normal executive functioning and we'll touch slightly on patriarchal relations in sexuality later on in chapter three. Inhibition slash, impulse control it's worth pointing out before we begin that these systems don't only marginalize women, but also deeply affect all people who are marginalised for their gender, such as trans women and non-binary folks. However, much more research needs to be done into the impact on these people. On top of this, patriarchy particularly impacts women and people marginalised for their gender, who have intersecting identities and are marginalised by multiple systems of oppression, for example, black women, disabled women and people from poor or working class backgrounds.

Speaker 1: 34:13

1. Paid work. As I touched on above, women on average are still paid considerably less than men for doing the same work. In the UK, 79% of gender pay gap reporting employers stated that medium hourly pay in their organisation was higher for men than for women. There also continues to be very prominent glass ceiling, a term coined by Marilyn Loden in 1978, which refers to the sometimes invisible barrier to success that many women come up against in their career, meaning that women are less likely to be promoted to senior or managerial roles. Women currently only account for 8.2% of CEO roles in large companies, and it was only in 2023 that the total number of female CEOs of S&P 500 businesses overtook the number of CEOs called John.

Speaker 1: 35:20

How differences in paid work influence how we feel we quote should behave, as women and people marginalized for their gender are less likely to hold more senior positions within businesses. To hold more senior positions within businesses, this means that they are also less likely to have teams working under them who might support them with tasks that require executive functioning skills like organization, planning, prioritization and flexibility. This means that a woman's difficulties with these tasks might be more obvious, since nobody else is there to fill in the gaps in her skills. For example, if a male CEO struggles with organisation, this task might be taken care of by his team or personal assistant and therefore his struggles wouldn't be as apparent, whereas if a woman in a more entry-level role has these same organizational difficulties, it is less likely that there would be a support system in place to help her and therefore these struggles are more likely to be noticeable and have an impact on the work that she is able to complete or the way she is able to perform patriarchal, neuro-normative relationships, marriage and families. Women are still expected to take on the vast majority of unpaid labour, which Walby describes as being quote under the expectations of her husband. Research from the Office of national statistics has shown that, on average, men do 16 hours a week unpaid work, which includes adult care and child care, laundry and cleaning, compared to 26 hours of unpaid work a week done by women.

Speaker 1: 37:33

How production relations in the household influence how we feel we quote should behave similarly to the workplace example shared. Above this, same dispartly in levels of support can be seen in the home. For example, we might not notice that a man brackets in a stereotypical heteronormative relationship has difficulties with organisation, planning and prioritisation because these tasks might be taken care of by his wife in her brackets. Unpaid role of quote homemaker. Of quote homemaker. In addition to this, since women are forced to take on all this additional unpaid labor in the household, they are likely to constantly be spinning a lot more plates, and so it makes sense that some of those plates might fall and crash, and their executive functioning difficulties might be more apparent. Of nine studies that looked specifically at housework as a form of unpaid labour, six reported a relationship between increased housework and poor mental health in women. As our mental health suffers, our ability to quote function normally is bound to reduce.

Speaker 1: 38:54

We are currently seeing a huge increase in the number of women being diagnosed with ADHD, in particular, in their 30s, 40s, 50s and beyond. We know that a lot of this is down to the fact that the diagnostic criteria for ADHD were not designed to account for the experiences of women, and so they have remained undiagnosed and misdiagnosed for many years, and are also a result of the ways that we are socialized as women to be quiet and polite and therefore mask any of our ADHD traits. However, could another factor playing into this wave of late diagnosis and realization be the fact that many of these women, when only having to take care of themselves, had found coping strategies and ways of working around their executive functioning difficulties so that their struggles were not apparent to the people around them. But once they suddenly had a family husband, children, pets and home to take care of, these coping strategies no longer sufficed and everything came crashing down. In years gone by brackets, white women might not have been expected to work, as they occupied their roles as quote homemakers, and their husbands were the quote sole breadwinners of the household, and women have rightly taken their place in the working world. The expectations held around who is responsible for housework, domestic work, childcare and other care have not kept up with this changing landscape. This means that women have more responsibilities to juggle than ever before and our executive functioning skills are pushed to their limits. It is therefore no wonder that we might be struggling to quote hold things together in the ways that other undiagnosed neurodivergent people might have done in the past Brackets. It is important to point out that this stereotypical example comes from a place of white privilege, and black women have historically been enslaved and or made to work in lower paid roles, while juggling this with their responsibilities as mothers, wives and or homemakers, as Amy Polly, she her ADHD and mental health speaker and campaigner, explains.

Speaker 1: 41:45

Being diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 37 threw up so many questions. One of the biggest was why? Now, after reflecting on my life and run up to my diagnosis, I realized that having my baby was the catalyst for things unraveling. It was at this point in my life that I just had one too many plates to spin and they all came crashing down when I just had myself to look after. It was easy to let the odd plate slip and dart about between them and even hide it from the world if one fell. Once I had an extra human to take care of. There was just one too many plates to handle. We have been so conditioned to think that we must do it all and do it all well. For those of us who are neurodivergent, there can also be a wave of shame when we feel like we can't, but what I have come to learn through a process of self-awareness and self-compassion is that there is, in fact, nothing wrong with me, but there is, in fact, something wrong with the expectations put upon me. It is time to start questioning the plates. It is time to focus on how to spin our own plates. It is time to stop worrying about how others spin their plates and it's time to start sharing them out.

Speaker 1: 43:19

3. The patriarchal state. The patriarchal state refers to the way that states and countries can be inherently oppressive to women through policies and laws, and that society is fundamentally biased towards men. In Tory Britain, this showed up in austerity measures and budget cuts in social care services, which disproportionately affected women, as they often rely more on these services. Reductions in funding for health care and child care, policies around parental leave and child care, which often reinforce traditional gender roles, and lack of access to reproductive health care, including abortion and contraceptive services, to name but a few. How the patriarchal state influences how we feel we quote should behave. If parental leave policies within businesses and corporations continue to reinforce traditional gender roles, this perpetuates the additional labour assigned to women and people marginalised for their gender, which has the impact discussed above. On top of this, a 2019 study by Today found that 52% of women believed that gender discrimination negatively impacts their medical care and a third of women said they felt a need to quote prove the legitimacy of their medical concerns and symptoms to their doctors. This means that a woman's or person marginalized for their gender struggles with executive functioning skills such as emotional regulation, impulse control and organization might be seen as quote personal flaws instead of what they really are disabling traits.

Speaker 1: 45:28

4. Patriarchal culture institutions. Many aspects of our culture, such as media, religion and education, produce and perpetuate portrayals of women through a patriarchal viewpoint. For example, there is still a social norm that a man is quote head of the household or that women are often quote emotional, hysterical or irrational. How patriarchal culture institutions influence, as Gina Martin shared above times, seen as quote normal in girls because of our sexist stereotypes about girls being hysterical, dramatic or overly emotional. Before I was diagnosed as autistic and adhd, I personally had my emotional regulation difficulties put down to quote hormones and my social difficulties at school put down to the fact that quote girls could just be bitches sometimes, instead of them being taken seriously as traits of my undiagnosed disabilities. In a patriarchal culture, men are socialized to quote man up and hide their emotions or any display of vulnerability, and women and people marginalized for their gender, while socialized to show their emotions more, are told that in order to be taken seriously, they must learn to do the same. This leads us to label any display of emotions as quote dysregulated or quote dysfunctional, when in reality those emotions are a perfectly normal, valid and human response to specific circumstances or situations.

Speaker 1: 47:29

Okay, that is where I'm trying to get through like 20 pages every read. And yeah, thank you everybody for listening to me talk about this lovely book and if you like this episode, if you like what we do here at behind the paddle, then please leave us a like, please leave us a rating on spotify or apple. Please do not forget to do that. That would be absolutely lovely. That really helps a lot, especially because we talk about a lot of shadow band subjects. If you want to help the show in any way, then you can share, like review or even donate if you would like to. But, yeah, aside from that, I will catch you Monday and goodbye.