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Hello and welcome back to Behind the Powder Podcast with me, Paulson Victoria. So today, um oh I am furious not only with the government, just with um Nordic Model Now. They are on Twitter and I just came across their post, even though they've blocked me, um, because obviously I am not pro-Nordic model, um, it still comes up their their page and everything like that. And they actually have written a booklet on decriminalization of the sex trade versus the Nordic model, what you need to know. It is 35 pages, which sets out the pros and cons of full decriminalization of the sex trade versus the Nordic model. It explains in simple terms the key features of both approaches, along with information about the results of the Nordic model in Sweden, of full decrim in New Zealand, and legalization in Germany, which is very similar to full decrim decrim in practice. There are quotes from women who have lived experience of prostitution under these different systems, data, photos, and artwork. Now that is a quote um just talking about the booklet um from the Nordic model now. Now, I would like to point out the fact that they have um just after talking about legalization in Germany, they've put which is very similar to full decrim in practice. It's not. Legalization is not um very similar at all. Um so yeah, we're gonna deep dive into this. I've got it on my phone um and I'm recording on my laptop, so I should be able to just like it's gonna be a rant. Um, but I'm also going to um how do I say just like um combat what they've said in terms of how decriminalization is actually good. I just I I just I feel like it speaks volumes, the fact that they have actually blocked uh me, an active sex worker who has been charged with brothel keeping just because I wanted to keep other sex workers safe. I feel like that does speak volumes in ways that they don't want to hear from me. Um yeah, so when it comes to Germany, we have done uh behind the paddle podcast, we have done an episode um on Germany with a German mistress um with Miss May. I believe it was in one of our ten first episodes, I think, something like that. And that we talked about how Germany does have legalization, not decriminalization, and you have to get a whore's passport. Yeah, a whore's passport, that is what it's called, um, and you have to get that renewed um every few weeks, I believe it is now. So with that, typical costs do vary by city. So the registration card itself is 35 euros, and then you do have to have you can um have your stage name one, so that's another 35 euros, and then you've got health counselling sessions, which can um cost uh 35 euros or more. Um if you get both uh the regular and alias cards and do health counselling locally, it can be up to 100 euros, and of course you've got um the registration certificate, which is for 15 euros, and so there's there's a lot more that can be added as well, and then you also do have to do um STD and SDI checks, um, which come out of your pocket. Um we do go further into this in the Miss May episodes. I would definitely um go in dive into that if I were you guys, if you wanted to know more about Germany's legalization. Um for now I am just gonna debunk what these guys are saying because it honestly has made me so mad. Um I will I was writing this out what I was going to say, but then I thought it would just be so much easier to blow off steam, especially just uh just to go with it and just to start recording, um, mainly for my sanity as well. So for starters, they start with a pie chart which says prostitution is unequal. Yeah, one side has sex buyers, which shows mostly uh the good majority men and then a little bit female. And it says in a study of UK sex buyers, 27% believed he was entitled to any act he wanted, 47% believed the woman had no rights, 49% had bought sex abroad. What he said. Quote, men go to prostitutes so they can do things to them their girlfriends would not put up with. End quote. Quote, my favourite experience was when she was totally submissive, end quote. Now, first off, um, I don't know where they're getting this from, honestly. Um props to the punters, to the Johns, to the clients, whatever you want to call them, um saying this. Again, no idea where these quotes are getting from. Um, on the next bit of the pie chart, there is another pie chart which says sex sellers. And now there is less um male buyers that less less male sellers, um, and there's the majority female. Um, in a study of women in prostitution, 70% had been sexually assaulted as children. 75% had experienced homelessness. 89% wanted to leave, but had no other options. What she said. Quote, I would go somewhere else with my thoughts until he got off me, and it was over. I don't know how else to explain it except it felt like rape. End quote. Quote, I was used like a public toilet. End quote. Again, they are not saying where these come from, and I'm not denying the fact that um women in prostitution haven't uh been sexually assaulted as children or experienced homelessness or anything like that. What I have a problem with here is that I don't know where this has come from, and I also don't know how many people they asked. I don't know how many clients or how many women in sex work they asked. Um and I'm I definitely have had clients where I personally am just like I'm putting up with this. Like, uh yeah, I will fully admit like sex work is not always peachy. You will also get clients who disrespect you and they they just they just w they disrespect you and or they're ugly or they smell, and then this is where your boundaries come into play, and I understand some sex workers they can't afford to have boundaries. I totally understand that, but this is where it comes into it that it's a poverty issue, the fact that we need to take these clients because we need to pay our bills. This is what beef I have when it comes to people who want the Nordic model, and they essentially blame the women, and they blame the men, but they're not doing anything about the men. They're punishing the women by bringing in the Nordic model. Like, as I said, I am totally not denying that there are clients uh that that there aren't clients where I don't want to, you know, see that person, but I do because I want to make sure that I pay my bills, and that's where it comes down, where it's a poverty issue, where the economy is you can't afford things these days, and so we do take on clients we don't want to take on. So then we go to the next page uh the yeah, the next page, where it says, quote, sex work, a normal job, really, and there is a picture with a man with his head tilted up, looking a bit smug, and his top says, Sex work is work, and below him, he's getting a blowy. He's getting a blow job by a woman who I'm I need to f figure out where this picture's from because you could say that the man is the sex worker here, or the woman is the sex you could say evil. This is what I mean. Right, I'm a search. Oh my god, oh my god, right. I'm so sorry, I've just hurt everybody's ears. It's it's the the male is the sex worker. The male is the sex worker. Oh my god. That took a little bit of hunting. Oh my god, I'm so happy. Oh my god, I can't believe this. I'm so happy. The the guy is a sex worker himself in the image. So it doesn't seem like he does anything um right now, but he did um do OnlyFans, um, admire me. Um he was on Instagram and X, but sadly not there anymore. And it does look like he was a photographer as well. I'm a as well as um doing porn. Oh my god, I am so happy that I've been able to link this to a a male sex worker. Wow, because what they say underneath it, um oh wow, I'm I'm just I'm so happy. I cannot believe that. Um yeah, so quote, it's fashionable to claim that quote sex work is real work, and anyone who dares to suggest otherwise is right-wing fascist even. If, quote, sex work is a real job, they say, then full decriminalization of the sex industry must be the answer. Now, we don't want full decriminalization of the sex industry, we want rights in in the ways of like we want to be able to work together, we want to be able to walk around safely with like condoms in our bags, we want to not have um aggression when it comes to police. We don't want to have the fear of our bank accounts closing, of our children getting taken off of us. So yeah, we we want to be able to have maternity pay, we want to be able to um have rights, especially when it comes down to housing, because me personally, um, in the previous episode talking about um vi and violence against sex workers' day, um I was essentially blackmailed um by a private agency when they found out that I did sex work in a private property and they wanted me out and they didn't give me my deposit back and lied and refused to give me photos and everything like that. So yeah. Then it goes on to say there was a photo doing the rounds on social media a couple of years ago of a man only wearing only a t-shirt on which the slogan is sex work is work and a naked woman on her knees in front of him, ostensibly sucking his penis. The man's face in the picture of is a picture of entitlement and self-righteousness. We do not see the woman's face because it's deep in his groin. Honestly, I see the picture as beautiful, if I'm honest. Um like I wouldn't hang it above my wall or anything like that. Um, but it's it's nice and I don't see anything wrong with it. Like you can interpret images however you like, but when it's not your image, um I just feel like you need to go back to the source because clearly um as you read on as I'm gonna read on, they haven't realized that the sex worker here is um well, I would assume the female as well, but it's also the male. But they're only talking about the woman. Let's look at that photo a little longer. Look how her head is tilted back and upwards, as if in supplication. Um yeah, I mean her head could be tilted back. I mean it's for me, it's kind of hard to tell. But like you don't see her forehead or anything like that, so I feel like it's you it's they're trying to put words into like your your mouth and your brain where it's like yes, this is what you see. And it's like I think she's just sucking dick, but okay. Feel the stress on her neck, the tension in her body. Now look at his face, his eyes are closed, his awareness is with himself, not with her. Now I'm not being funny, when I give a guy a blowy, whether that be my partner or a client, they can enjoy it. Like, again, I see my work as a job. I want my client to have a smile on their face, and yes, it is stuck in dick is strenuous uh on the neck and on the jaw as well. It's it is a workout. This is honestly ridiculous. You remember these stories of men who end up in AE after inserting their penis into the tube of a vacuum cleaner and wonder why he needs a woman and not some sort of machine. I must stop you right there, Nordic model now. Um I do have a a what is it, a Venus 2000? I can't remember. I don't really use it that often, but I use the Trembler milking machine, which is a vacuum and it pulls and sucks on the penis, and some men do enjoy that. Um but I think what you're talking about here is the lack of sexual education which kids get, and the feeling of how taboo sex is, and talking to your parents about how to masturbate and talking and not being able to talk about um, let's think vacuum-wise, penis pumps or um milkers thing, things which suck your penis. Um I feel like that's what they're highlighting right now, and they don't realize it. Like this is like kids get curious, men also get curious as well, and that's why they stick their penis up a vacuum. You know, it's like um when I don't know if when like you were a kid you wanted to like stick your finger in a fan uh with the blades, yeah. I know, but like look, some people can relate, alright? Like there's a few little things like that where it's like you kinda wanna know. You kinda wanna know. So yeah, they're just highlighting the lack of sex education. Um, again, they are pointing us into a different direction. So then they go on. And then you see the point. He needs a woman. He needs a woman so he can be the master. A machine simply won't cut it. Um what I mean, yeah, a vacuum doesn't yeah, like a vacuum really doesn't cut it because it's a vacuum. Like, me again, with my experience and amazing knowledge of being a sex worker, right? I know that a vacuum doesn't cut it. And that there are multiple different things that men can use. There's this thing called a bubbler, where um if you have a penis, it doesn't have to be a man, but if you have a penis, um you can insert your dick and it's ribbed and it's like a pocket pussy, essentially, and you just go up and down, and that gives like a different sensation. Um, to a mouth, to a vagina. Like a vagina and a mouth are like two different they're they're two different things, and they both give different sensations. And so obviously a machine wouldn't cut it for some people. I mean, if you have a milking machine, you know, some people just have a fetish for milk milking machines. Um, some people only get off with a milking machine and certain things. Um, I don't really think the picture dict pictates that he needs a woman so he can be the master. Um have they heard of switches? Um yeah, I think I think honestly uh quite a few men would disagree with that. Uh especially when it comes to like submissive men, because yes, they do like getting their penis sucked, but they're certainly not the master in that position. Ugh. And then they go. Now let's imagine the photo reversed. A woman is wearing only a t-shirt and a young man has his face deep in her groin, his head tilted slightly upwards, as if in supplication, his entire body stressed. It's not as easy to visualize, it feels awkward. Okay, so right there they're already planting the seed that it should feel awkward for you. That is not okay. That is really not okay for then for them to say it should feel awkward. Not just because of an anatomy, but because of the way women's sexuality has been positioned as shameful and dangerous for so many centuries. You're a bit of a hypocrite, if I'm honest, uh, Nordic model now, because when it you're not allowing women to do what they want with their bodies, and you're kind of honestly kind of shaming this woman uh for being on her knees to a man. And then it goes on to say. And how women have been punished and tortured for their sexuality too, in a way unknown to men. And then we need to ask: would it be a normal job for a young man to have to give quote oral sex to five, ten, fifteen random women a day? If not, why not? Would you, in capital letters, want that job? If not, why not? Can you honestly say that this is no different from serving random strangers coffee? Okay. When we also mention normal job, we do want again, we want rights. We want rights. We want labour rights. I am not being coerced into doing this job. If I was being coerced, then it's sex trafficking. And that's something which has its own laws already, and it needs to be dealt with as sex trafficking, not sex work. Poverty. They need to pay their bills. And it just sounds like they are shaming the women for this. And then they go, but then we need to remember that in reality there is something that men demand on a scale that women don't. If young men are doing this so-called job, the vast majority of their customers are men, just like the vast majority of women's customers are men. Right, I'm not being funny. Um when it goes to a webcam, um, like OnlyFans and things, uh, say for instance Rebecca Goodwin, she has shown that the majority of her um people who are subscribed are actually women. Um, she does have like a good um portion of women subscribers, but if that wasn't the case, we are giving them a service. We do know what we are doing, we are sound of mind. Um people might be doing sex work when it comes down to feeding their addiction, um, whether that be drugs, alcohol. Um, but again, that comes down to a poverty issue. Why are people addicted? And yes, when it comes to men in sex work, obviously there is going to be some portion that it's men. There are gay men that exist, and yeah, the the options are out there. Um I can personally say that I have seen women clients because they trust me more than they trust um men, just in general. Um which is totally up to them. And again, it comes down to misogyny. We shouldn't be policing women, we should be teaching how misogyny isn't the right way, we should be tackling the stigma. So then they say, and that's the rub. This is not really about orgasms, is it? If it were, you could get a machine, a vibrator for women, a fleshlight for men. See, I will be completely honest, I love my vibrator. I love it. It gives me a total different sensation than a penis or my hand or any other toy, which is why this should be taught in sex ed. Different sensations and what we can do to give the body pleasure, right? Um, and I love having a penis inside of me. I love sex. And again, I do dislike some clients when it comes to doing sexual acts. However, I need to pay the bills. It is more of a poverty issue. I wouldn't say the only thing I would say I'm coerced uh that is making me do this is capitalism. The thing with these big um organizations is they're not blaming the government, they're blaming the men, and that isn't helping misogyny whatsoever. Because they're not blaming men in the right way, where it's calling out what they're doing in ways of actually teaching younger kids not to be misogynistic, and that can go for women as well, because misogyny it's not just um men, like we are all born around it, and we can all get caught up in it. And oh I then they go on to say, is this what we want to legitimize? Is this what our foremothers and forefathers fought so long and hard for? Men as masters, women as servants. Now, me, I know I'm in control of my own body, but you have to look at it as a perspective from anybody who has a job is a slave to the state. We all have a job to do, and that's to pay the bills and to survive and put food on the table. Why isn't this attacking the government for cutting benefits for not raising the minimum wage? So people don't have to go into um sex work. This is what this should be targeting. I wouldn't say women are servants, women are very, very smart. This this this is also what organizations do where it makes women out to be stupid, where it says women are servants. No, women they are we are capable of making our own choices. Um and we understand that our clientele is going to be men, and we do understand that men can be horrible and can be brutal and can see us as meat. And we do put ourselves in those circumstances because we need to put food on the table. And sadly, some people can't get quote unquote real jobs potentially because of the criminal records, and that might be because of street walking or brothel keeping charges, and again, you can get a brothel keeping charge just by working with another sex worker. There are so many problems with this. Oh so um do I want to skip a little bit? I kinda do because I know you know what. Right, quote And a Rapacus Rapacus industry built on that. An industry that sucks in and profits from mostly young women making men masters. As if men are not social creatures bound by rules of reprocity. As if the young women's health, well-being, and sexual integrity are of no account. Full decriminalization of sex of the sex trade is predicted on the understanding that prostitution is a normal job. It involves removing all laws around prostitution so that it is treated exactly like any other business activity. Buying sex is no different from having a haircut. Well it is. It is. We're not saying it's the same as having a haircut. Having a haircut uh means holding scissors and cutting hair. Um, you can have dangers in any workplace. Um, say for instance being a nurse in the NHS, um even being a plumber, like you could go to a job, if you're a woman, violence is increased. It can be, absolutely. That is just a fact that being a woman it carries a lot of weight and fears. And when it comes to that, you are like prone to more violence. And it's it's not like potentially, like it is a thing that does happen. It's why some women, when walking alone in the street, they have to have their keys um in their hand, uh, with a key between one of the fingers, just in case somebody comes up behind them and attacks them. This is just all fears that women have. And we're not deflecting this. This is fact. It's not the same about having a haircut, but when you when it is gendered violence, then there is like an increased risk, absolutely. So you do have to like be prepared for certain things. And then they say, quote, running a brothel is just like running a barber shop. Now, again, I was charged with brothel keeping just for having sex workers work at my property. Um, I rented out a room to sex workers, and yeah, that got me charged with brothel keeping. Um, the sex workers had a warm, cozy environment. They had condoms, they had lube, they had a first aid kit, they had um they had fire extinguishers, you know, they had they had things which they needed. And they also had like security cameras as well. Um, but now I don't have that safe space, and a lot of sex workers that use the place don't have that either. Um again, even if you do like a double session with another sex worker, that is running a brothel. Yep. Yep. And same for if you did it in a hotel with another sex worker, that hotel is now a brothel. And then they say pimps are respectable businessmen, right? When it comes to pimps, that's sex trafficking. It's not sex work, it's sex trafficking. Quote, you don't need to be an economist to know that this will lead to a rapid expansion of the industry. If buying sex is presented as no different from getting a hair caught, of course more men will do it. Within months, we will see multi-story brothels springing up in every city. False. There's no. Just no. Um, yeah, just just no. Uh maybe we have that whole boom of people going on OF, for example, um during COVID, because people were getting laid off. They couldn't afford to live. This is a poverty issue. Quote, where will that leave working class solidarity? Where will it leave women? On our knees, men as masters, women as servants or slaves? Think of the implications for all women. The precedence it would set for all workers. Whoa, whoa, whoa, so are you saying that we're workers? Quote, don't buy the sex industry propaganda, don't betray the next generation. Let's not create a world where job centres send young women down the brothel. Prostitution is, capital letters, not a normal job. No, I wouldn't say it's a normal job, and I certainly wouldn't um want people to join sex work. No, I would never um want to I'll sh share something. Um I did um a news article recently, um, and they wanted to post how much I make a month. And I said, I do not want to say that, um, how much I make because I want the main focus to be about safety and that we need safety and we don't want a Nordic model, etc. etc. And the reporter then said, Oh, but this might be inspiring to um single mums, um, women who want to get into the industry but are too nervous to. And I stopped the reporter right in their tracks and I said, No, I do not want to inspire anybody into the industry. It can be a horrible industry for people who aren't thick skinned, who don't enjoy sex, who aren't prepared to deal with the massive negatives of their bank accounts getting shut down, of the stigma of the fact that your digital ID will be like all online, especially if the new laws come into place. Um, because the UK right now are wanting to bring in digital ID. I mean, you already need your ID to view porn, which is horrific. Like, no. Um, oh god, I've just imagined all the kids using their parents' porn accounts because they can't create their own, or deep diving into like the dark web. That's this is bad, man. This is really bad. No. And yes, porn is massively fake. That is also what we need to teach in schools. So they then say, what does decriminalization mean? Decriminalization of the sex trade means the full decriminalization of all aspects of the sex trade, including pimping and brothel keeping. Okay, no, no, not pimping, no. Um, again, if sex workers would be able to actually um help create the decrim law, we would definitely have something where it comes to having agencies. Um there wouldn't be any pimping, there wouldn't be any people, um, but like one person. Um, we would definitely love to include like how much um percentage the agency would take and what safety precautions the agencies would give. Like, common sense. Come on. And I'm not being funny, brothel keeping, I was charged with brothel, like it it really makes me cry when organizations like this say horrible things about brothel keeping because I was charged with brothel keeping, and that was just um for working with other sex workers and for me being able to provide them with a place um to safely work. Granted, yes, I did make profit off of it because I was losing out um not being able to work at those times, and they were using up my gas and electric and my supplies, and so of course you would charge at least a little percentage. It's it's they were like a hotel. So yeah, that brothel keeping. Um fuck yeah. We want to get rid of the um law on brothel keeping when it comes to sex workers um working together. Um I would not this might get me in trouble, but I would not mind being like a madam to a quote unquote brothel because essentially I was in the eyes of the law. Um, hey, as long as everybody has worker rights, labor rights underneath my roof, and you're doing things safely and legally, go for it. Do what you have to do to pay the bills. Um, as long as you're safe and you have consented, go for it. Um, the sex trade is treated like any other business, and there is no public funding for services to help women exit the trade. Okay, so Ash Regan's Nordic model, they've already stated that they do not have any, they will not get any public funding or anything like that. Um, so there's gonna be no exit strategies anyway. Again, um if sex workers were able to say they wanted decriminalization and we could do a bill which was decriminalization, we would obviously get a say in that. And on average it's about 10 grand, I think, um, per sex worker to actually help them exit. You can, I don't know if you can see it on the English Collective of Prostitutes website. Um, but Nikki, one of the organizers of the English Collective Prostitutes, mentioned this in the one of the committee meetings, which you can see on the government website. I'm so sorry, I'm not helped with that. Um, but that has been mentioned and recorded um that it costs about 10 grand per sex worker to help exit. Um, but again, the government have no um intentions on actually doing that, and Ashwegan herself has said there's no exit strategies. Quote, laws against sex trafficking are retained, but in practice they are hard to enforce. Okay, so they have already stated that sex trafficking is not a sex work by just saying that. For example, in New Zealand where this law is in place, the police are not allowed to enter a brothel without a warrant, even if they suspect trafficking victims are inside. Even though they can enter without a warrant to check a liquor license. Um, that's the exact same here. Um, the police needed a warrant to uh enter my property. So yeah. Um yeah. Quote There's little or no symptomatic data collection on exploitation of children in the sex industry. Police are not allowed to ask a person's age even if they suspect she is a child being sexually exploited. As a result, most sex trafficking goes undetected. Okay, most sex trafficking goes undetected. Um, mainly because one, when it is uh the Nordic model or legalization, um, it's actually harder for sex traff uh sex victims to actually escape and exit. Um I go more in detail in one of my episodes about sex trafficking. Um but yeah, it is harder. And I'm pretty sure the police would still be able to show an estimate by just looking um at a person. Um and again, like sex trafficking just in general, it's very hard to find statistics and data on, which um goes to show that they they don't have any data or results, and they've just said that, even though in a lot of their arguments they say under decriminalization and legalization, sex trafficking thrives. But they've just said they don't have that much data on it. Quote Under full decrim, we could expect to see large brothels in every city and out of town industrial park, like this one in Germany. Okay, right. The they've just got that wrong. Uh Germany is legalization, not decriminalization, and Germany has their own problems when it comes to that. Um quote, and we could expect to see small brothels opening up. Houses and flats in residential areas with local councils and residents having no say, no matter what problems are caused. Okay, um, firstly, my place was in residential, um, and I wasn't actually causing anybody any harm. And I feel like communication between adults needs to be open and actually adulting. I don't see any problem when it comes to having a property, um, because it it shouldn't matter if it's a brothel or if it's um a sole person working from there because there's still gonna be people in and out. So like their whole point about um s opening up small brothels again, if sex workers are working together for safety that there shouldn't be a problem. Like that should that shouldn't be illegal. And I would like to make a point. If it is so dangerous for women, why is a Nordic model wanting demanding us to work alone? Okay, so when it now, right um it goes on to what does the Nordic model mean? The Nordic model understands prostitution to be harmful. Sex work can be harmful, yes. Both to the individual and to society as a whole, and that it is both a cause and a consequence of the inequality between women and men. Oh uh right, okay. I see where they're going with this. The Nordic model has several elements. Firstly, it repeals laws that target those selling sex and provides them with support services. No, it doesn't. And helps them leave the industry if they want to. It it doesn't. Um it doesn't. Um it ensures that they there are genuine alternatives for making a living. Yes, there there can be alternatives, potentially, for some people, yes. But there has been evidence that when some people who have tried to exit haven't been able to get jobs and they've had to rely on benefits. And benefits have constantly keep getting cut. And that's dangerous in itself. Secondly, it strengthens laws against trafficking, pimping, brothel keeping, and other activities by third parties who profit off of other people's prostitution. Right. Trafficking is ha it's got its own laws, right? It's got its own laws, and so does pimping. It's got its own laws. Lastly, prostitution, buying becomes a criminal offense with the aim of changing social norms and men's behaviors. Telling men they can't fuck women, they can't pay to fuck women is just going to enrage them. Along with all this, there needs to be a public information campaign, education in schools, training for the police, CPS, and other frontline staff, long-term investment in high-quality services and alternatives for women, and real measures to address poverty and equality. Okay, we agree there, absolutely. Um, I can say without a doubt, all around people who want the Nordic model and decriminalization can agree where there should be education in schools, training for the police, CPS, and other frontline staff. However, where we differ is how that training is put out there. Quote, this approach was first introduced in Sweden and has now also been established in Norway, Iceland, Northern Ireland, France, Ireland, and Israel. Yes, because we all love Israel right now. Each country has framed the law slightly differently and with different degrees of commitment and success. Okay, so straight off the bat, Sweden have actually said um that it hasn't worked, but they're gonna continue to do that. Sweden is um a country who stopped sterilizing trans people, I think in 2014 or 2017. Um, if they wanted to transition, they had to be sterilized. So yeah, take that with the pinch of salt um that you want to. That is the image of Sweden. Um, yeah, so comparison of the two approaches. Sell it so one says decriminalization, one says Nordic model. Selling sex is legal, decriminalization yes. Services for those selling sex, including routes out and alternatives. Decriminalization. What? They've put no Wow, um there is actual routes and alternatives for those selling sex in decriminalization. That's insane. Pimping is legal? Yes. For decriminalization. Um that's wrong. Pimping is not legal. Brothels are legal? Yes. Yes, they are. Um, because they are regulated in the ways that, you know, in New Zealand they have to have certain things. And when um there was a famous case where a New Zealand boss, I believe it was, um, I think it was sexually harassed or made comments towards a worker and she took it, took them to court, and she actually won her case. Now that's all because we had labor rights as sex workers in New Zealand. That wouldn't happen here. And in fact, I covered a story um about just a few episodes ago, about the Birkenhair strip club, about a sex worker stripper who wanted holiday pay that she was entitled to, and Birkenhair didn't give her it. And the court said that she should expect this in the job that she's in. So yeah, we clearly don't have labour rights here in the UK, and that it's already a big problem. But in New Zealand they have decriminalization, and a sex worker won a court battle between their employer. Um and then they say buying sex is legal, yes, decriminalization. And then it says Nordic model, yes, yes, no, no, no. I can't believe that they've lied about um route exit services and alternatives. That's insane. Wow. Um, I will be linking this um on my blog. Um, I don't have a blog for behind the paddle, but I do have um a blog on my work, Porcelain Victoria. Uh well, porcelain dolly.co.uk uh website, and that has all uh the episodes on and things like that. I'm gradually getting through it. Um oh my gosh, there's like there's quite a bit more. I just I'm so not not baffled, but not like oh I'm like 50 minutes in and it's like, do I just want to carry on this terribleness of false media? Okay, page nine out of Fairy 2. What happened in New Zealand? We are told over and over again that New Zealand is the proof that full decriminalization is the best policy. But what really happens there? New Zealand New Zealand changed its law in 2003 to decriminalize all aspects of the sex industry when the Prostitution Reform Act was passed. The intention behind the act was to improve things for the women involved, and there is little doubt that this was what motivated many of those who voted for it, and there were provisions for the impact of the law and numbers of women involved to be monitored over time. New academic research by Helen Johnson and Tony Pitt into the operation of the PRA has found that the benefits of the approach have been hugely exaggerated and its downsides have been, quote, ignored, denied, and hidden. Okay, so then they go on to say New academic research by Helen Johnson and Tony Pitt into the operation of the PRA has found that the benefits of the approach have been hugely exaggerated and its downsides have been ignored. Uh I've already said this. Ignored, denied, and hidden. That's why I get for pausing and like trying to fact-check. There has been only one official study of the operation of the PRA, which was undertaken in 2008. This found evidence of significant black market and no evidence that women were more likely to report violence. Even though the PRA enshrines women's rights to say no to individual clients and acts, they found that women were still coerced into taking clients and engaging in dangerous or unpleasant practices against their will, often by the brothel operators themselves, and 85% of those interviewed wished they could leave the industry. The report made a number of recommendations that, more than a decade later, have still not been implemented. Since 2008, there have been no further official reviews of the operation of the PRA and the New Zealand Ministry of Justice have said there are no plans for any more. Johnson and Pitt found that there has been no serious attempt to track the numbers of women involved in the industry. The numbers reported in the 2008 study, 2,332, is still frequently cited for NCPC. The New Zealand Sex Workers Collective reported engaging with 7,416 people involved in prostitution in the first half of 2019 alone, which means that the numbers involved have at least trebled since 2008 and probably risen by significantly more. The PRA requires regular inspections of brothers. However, Johnson and Pitt found that not a single brothel inspection was carried out in any of the three major cities up until 2015, and it's unlikely there have been any since, because there is no public findings for this. Only 11 brothel inspections were carried out in the rest of New Zealand in the 10 years prior to 2015. The PRA gives women the right to turn down clients and particular acts, but in practice coercion is rife, not least by the pimps and brothel operators, and women generally simply move to another brothel when it becomes intolerable. Johnson and Pitt say, quote, there have only been two prosecutions under the law against coercion intersex acts since 2009, despite repeated reports that it happens in high numbers, end quote. The New Zealand government relies almost entirely on NZPC for issues related to prostitution. NZPC has a contract to gather data on complaints, referrals, and concerns raised by women in prostitution. Johnson and Pitt found that they have not carried out these and other duties under the contract and their New Zealand government does not monitor their performance under it. NZPC is a lobby group that dominates the conversation about prostitution in New Zealand. They receive more than a million dollars in government funding annually, even though helping women to exit the industry was one of the aims of the PRA, and 85% of those interviewed in the 2008 study said they wanted to leave prostitution. NZPC provides no services to help women exit the industry, and there is no other publicly funded exit provision in New Zealand. And yet NZPC provides substantial help to brothel operations, operators, and to anyone who is considering setting up a brothel. NZPC denies that there is significant gang involvement in prostitution and that the exploitation of children in prostitution and sex trafficking are real problems, even though the media and the US TIP report have documented significant and troubling evidence of these things. Okay, so we're gonna unpack that. No, they do not actually tell us the troubling evidence or the uh significant evidence, they don't tell us that. Um and again, they have mentioned that they can't actually track the exploitation of children um in trafficking because it is trafficking, because they are coerced into doing it. So we're gonna unpack this right now. So the claims being made rely on selective interpretation of data, conflation of different types of evidence and advocacy-driven sources rather than robust robusque um research. First, the comparison between the 2008 estimate of approximately 2,332 sex workers and the NZPC's 2019 figure of 7,416 people is very misleading. The 2008 Prostitution Law Review Committee figure was an attempt to estimate the number of people involved in sex work at the given time. By contrast, the NZPC's later figures refer to the number of individuals they engaged with through outreach and support services over a period of time. Service contact data cannot be treated as a national headcount or used to claim that the industry has travelled. These are fundamentally different types of data and are not directly comparable. And I'm not being funny, but if you feel like you're being supported as a sex worker, I myself would feel more comfortable coming out as a sex worker. So it would make sense if um other sex workers came out once there was less stigma. Secondly, um claims about the lack of brothel inspections and low numbers of prosecutions under the PRA are frequently misused to imply that coercion is either rampant or ignored. Um, in reality, low inspection and prosecution numbers are common across many labor and regulatory contexts, particularly where high evidentially evidently thresholds apply and where workers may be reluctant to engage with law enforcement bodies. The absence of prosecutions does not demonstrate the absence of rights or the failure of the law, nor does it constitute proof of widespread coercion. Thirdly, assertions, that's the word, that coercion is rife, and that women are simply moved between brothels, are presented without reliable actual data, like hello. Johnson and Pitt's work is often cited, but it is not official government audit and relies heavily on qualitative accounts and secondary sources. While coercion can and does occur, as it does in many industries, again, we are a slave to the state. We have to make money. The available evidence does not support claims that decriminalization has increased coercion compared to criminalized or partially criminalized models. Fourthly, NZPC's role is constantly mischaracterized. NCPC is a peer-led public health and harm reduction organization, not an enforcement agency. It does not carry out inspections, investigate crimes, or prosecute operators. Engagement with brothel operators is a statutory requirement under the PRA to ensure health and safety compliance, not evidence of regulatory capture or endorsement of exploitation. Expecting the NZPC to function as a regulator or law enforcement body misunderstands both its um remit and the structure of the law. Fifthly, the repeat claim that 85% of respondents in the 2008 review, quote, we wanted to exit prostitution, is often taken out of context. Many respondents expressed um conditional, long-term, or aspirational desires to leave sex work. Something is true across many forms of precarious labor. This is not the same as wanting immediate exit, nor does it demonstrate that decriminalization has failed. Importantly, the PRA was designed to improve safety rights improve safety rights and agency within sex work, Not to function as an exit program. That wasn't why it was there. Again, this is so easy if you just Google. And finally, claims about significant gang involvement, widespread trafficking, and child exploitation rely heavily on media reporting, you know, because we love the media carrying stigma and all that. And the US State Department's uh trafficking in persons tip report, neither of which constitute prevalence studies specific to New Zealand. Multiple independent reviews and peer-reviewed research have found no evidence that decriminalization in New Zealand has led to an increase in trafficking or the exploitation of minors. Where such harms occur, they remain criminal offenses under New Zealand law. Like these arguments rely on ideological framing rather than actual consistent evidence backed up by government evidence and frequently um conflate different types of data and misrepresent both the PRA and the role of the NZPC. They criticize um just the legal framework. Criticism of any legal framework should be grounded in compatible data, comparable data, transparent uh mythology, and an accurate understanding of how regulation, enforcement, and harm reduction systems actually operate. The Nordic model now uh clearly does not show any of that. And it is so frustrating to see this bullshit. Um, these lies being told. It's honestly exhausting being a sex worker and having to deal with this. So then we go on to the next page where it says a New Zealand survivor speaks out. Um trying to read this from my laptop now. Chelsea Geats suffered many years in the legal brothels in New Zealand, whose fully decriminalized approach to the sex trade is often held up as the most enlightened solution to prostitution. This is what she had to say about the approach when she was still trapped in that life. Whew, okay, so we're starting off with uh a slur first, okay. Quote, I'm a proszy myself, and I have never met another one who wants our pimps and johns to be decriminalized, or who wants to be made to pay tax on top of what the pimps already take, and to be given zero social services that help us exit, rehabilitate ourselves, get an education and a real job for the future, and instead of just be instead to just be told it's perfectly acceptable for us to stay right where we are. None of us want that. Even those of us who are here by quote choice because we need the money. We all want it to be temporary. We would all leave immediately if we could. Most of us are uninformed about government policies and have never heard of the Nordic model, so we might support decriminalization, but only because we think their alternative is for us to be criminalized and arrested among with our abusers. Everyone who knows about the Nordic model supports it. I would give up my life to bring the Nordic model to my country. Not that it's much of a life to give. Hmm. Okay, so everybody has their own experiences. I'm not here to shame Chelsea or say that what she says is lies or anything like that. Everybody has their own experiences, everybody feels how they feel, and everybody's entitled to that. Um what I will say though is even if it's legalized or criminalized, no matter what country, you still will have to pay taxes. Yeah. And like the court also um has pinpoints um many issues. So the lack of um exit services, um, exploitation by managers, and the dissatisfaction with sex work itself. Um however, the absence of um funded exit, education, or social support services reflects on the failures of the government um in social welfare policies. Not um it's not the flaw of decriminalization. When it comes to housing, paying your bills, um, education, that all should go in the government. Like we're we're already dealing with poverty, we're already dealing with um minimum wage, we're already dealing with housing shortages and um benefit cuts. Like we're kind of uh the Nordic model now is really dancing around the main problems and just blaming it on decriminalization or men. Okay, so then they go to Germany. So why we must look at Germany? Germany has a legalized system of prostitution, which in theory is quite different from the full decriminalization they have in New Zealand. This is how Frankie Murren, a campaigner for full decriminalization, describes the difference. Under legalization, sex work is controlled by the government and is legal only under certain state susp specific Oh my god, this word specific conditions, let's go with that word. Decriminalization involves the removal of all prostitution's specific laws. No not really Umtosex workers and sex work businesses must still operate within the laws of the land, as must any business. End quote. That said, there are in fact quite a lot of similarities in both New Zealand and Germany. There are multi-story brothels operating in plain sight. Pimps and brothel owners are considered respectable businessmen, and men buying sex is considered completely normal, like going to the pub. Um I'm just gonna end there and just say it's not just men um who are agencies. Uh quite a few agencies are actually um owned by women. Um here in the UK as well. There are agencies um who are owned and manned by women. Yeah, uh is uh quite shock I keep saying it's quite shocking seeing them write this, but it's not. It should be expected. Um quote, but before we go any further, we need to consider a little geography. New Zealand is a small country with a population of less than 5 million, and is it is you uniquely isolated, it has no land borders, and apart from some tiny specific islands, it's near its nearest neighbour, Australia, is more than 2,000 miles away. And otherwise, it is surrounded by the vast expanse of the Pacific Ocean. Germany, in contrast, is a large country with a population of approximately 84 million. It is in the center of the European Union and has land borders with nine other countries. Okay, which a point. Both countries are, quote, sex tourist destinations, but Germany's mega brothels are only a short drive or cheap flight away from Europe's approximately 300 million male citizens over the age of 14 compared to the approximately 1.8 million in New Zealand. The EU's open borders make bringing young women from Europe's poorer regions in Germany's mega brothels easy compared to doing something similar to New Zealand. Okay, let's stop there. They said poor. Poor, poorer regions, right. Okay, so we've mentioned it's a poverty issue that people need money, right? Okay. Quote, so of course, any negative results of the legislation will be more obvious in Germany than New Zealand. In the UK, we must ask, are we more like Germany or more like New Zealand geographically? What? The answer, of course, is that we are more like Germany, having a large population of about 67 million and being close to mainland Europe. This is why we must pay close attention to what has happened there. Wow, okay. Okay, so let's break this down just a little. Uh this comparison is like massively freaking flawed. Um, because it does treat Germany's legalized system as the equivalent to New Zealand's fully decriminalized one. They are structurally different. Germany's model legalizes sex work only under strict, very strict state conditions, which has driven large-scale um commercialization and pushed many workers outside the law. While New Zealand removed prostitution-specific criminal laws and regulates sex work through ordinary labour and health frameworks. Geographically and EU open borders explain much of Germany's experience and cannot be attributed to decriminalization itself. New Zealand has not seen the mega brothel expansion or trafficking patterns associated with Germany despite over two decades of decriminalization. Using Germany as a one warning against decriminalization conflates different legal systems and misattributes outcomes driven by migration policy, market incentive incentives, and labour exploitation. Like there are so many things that come with this. it's all so then they carry on to say Germany is known as um the brothel of Europe because its legalized prostitution system has resulted in a vast sex industry with until interrupted by COVID more than a million men visiting brothels in the country every day. Even most ardent supporters of legalization eventually came to recognize that it had been a failure and the Prostitutes Protection Act 2017 PPA was passed. Under this, prostitution is still legal, but is now subject to significantly tighter regulations. Right. So they have said that they understand it fails. Everybody has understood that Germany's legalization has failed. Can you see that nobody has in the government said that New Zealand has failed? We haven't got that. We haven't it's not down. So quote, unfortunately, these are directed almost entirely at the women involved rather than the pimps, brothel keepers and punters. So it is not surprising that it has failed to improve the situation. The problems are now widely recognized to be less to do with the legalization and more to do with the huge scale of the industry. The ease with which vulnerable women are exploited within it, and how it is more or less impossible for the police and other authorities to hold exploiters uh to account when they are operating under the cover of a legal system. All of these factors apply equally to full decriminalization as to legalisation what no um and I'm not being funny, we can go back to when the sex worker in New Zealand took her boss to court and won. So I've debunked that mate. Quote, there is every reason therefore to believe that if a fully decriminalized system were introduced in the UK or another European country or US state, it would not be long before we saw similar problems. Bullshit. Helmut Sporer, a recently retired senior police officer, yes, because we all like police officers, don't we? Worked for 30 years investigating and monitoring prostitution and human trafficking in Germany. Okay, so we already have right here um police officers saying that they are monitoring and investigating sex workers. We don't want that. Quote During his career he observed a progressive a progressive deterioration in both of the conditions for the women involved in prostitution and the ability of the authorities to effectively deal with the proliferation of organized crime and abuses within the system, in spite of or because of the various changes in the law relating to prostitution over that period. He now believes that the Nordic model is the only appropriate approach. Okay, we're gonna break this down. Okay, so right, this argument again like attributes um Germany's outcome to decriminalization. When Germany operates under the legalization model that actively incentivized large-scale uh commercialization, claims such as quote, a million men visiting brothels every day are widely circulated, but not supported by um transparent peer-reviewed data, and they're frequently um repeated without sourcing. Where are they getting the source from? Germany's own 2017 Prostitutes Protection Act was an attempt to correct failures of legalization, not evidence that removing criminal penalties for sex workers inherently causes harm. Many of the problems cited scale, organized crime, exploitation are shaped by EU labor, mobility, migration policy, poverty, and market incentives, not simply by prostitution law. These conditions do not, quote, apply equally to decriminalization as demonstrated by New Zealand, which has not experienced Germany's megabrothel expansion or trafficking patterns after more than two decades, as I've just said. Like individual police testimony like that of that police officer, I'm trying to be nice, reflects a personal policy position rather than um population um evidence, led evidence. Law reform should be based on comparative research, not um your own moral views. And this is like um what the Nordic model is. It's somebody's moral view on how they see um the sex work industry. So I think I'm gonna end it here because I've already babbled on for an hour. Um over an hour, in fact. I don't think I need to edit much in this episode because I've tried my best to just go through it. Um, and I've very much spoken my mind, and I really hope you guys um have enjoyed this episode. Um yeah, this I did not plan on doing this episode whatsoever. Um this was literally, oh, this has come up on like my full you page on X. What? Um so yeah. Um, I think I'm just gonna read this last bit um where it says because they go on to talk about Germany uh Sweden. So a German survivor speaks out, interviewer. Do you think the German state has any responsibility in your entrapment in prostitution? Sandra Norak. Yes. Just as I was manipulated by my pimp's propaganda, I was also manipulated by the official line that prostitution is just a job, a service, and we shouldn't be prudish, and we have to accept it. Basically, the German state says exactly the same thing as my pimp did. So the German state helped him to pimp me out. The German legislation helps push young women into prostitution because by saying prostitution is a normal job, all the harm and violence becomes invisible. Okay. First off with the interviewer, you can see the angle they're getting at. Um the way they the interviewer has said the German state. The German state it has many problems. Many problems. Not prostitution itself, not sex work itself. It it has problems, it does. We're not denying that. Sandra then goes on um by talking about um her pimp. Now again, we wouldn't have pimps with decriminalization. Um yes, prostitution, sex work is a job, it's a service. Um, I don't know where they're talking about being prudish. I think maybe that goes um into misogyny, honestly, a little bit, where women get called prude when um we don't shag men and keep our virginity and things like that. Um same with the word like frigid and stuff, like it's not nice words. Um, nobody has said that you have to accept being a prostitute. Um, I'm using their word now. Um nobody has said that you you shouldn't have to accept it. If the government have put you in a position where you're choosing to do sex work because of poverty, um because of the fact that you might not be able to find a nine to five job because you're in a housing crisis. That is all the government issues. Again, I don't you shouldn't have a pimp in general, you should take that up with um Germany. People who want DRIM have already said um we don't want legalization, legalization is still bad. Uh, we don't condone legalization. Um it's not a normal job. It is a job which has more risks because you're a woman, um, and because everybody is against us, and there is harm and there is violence. Uh like the 17th of December just passed, and that was international and violence against sex workers' day. We are constantly um stigmatized by the media, we're constantly stigmatized by banks, by um partners, by exes, by family members, by friends, by doctors. Check out that episode, it was really good. I'm really happy with it. Um it goes into more detail about that. We're not saying that decriminalization or legalization is foolproof. We're not saying that it will um be the most successful thing ever. No, there still will be homelessness, there still will be people struggling to pay bills, the the economy still will be struggling because it's the government's job to make sure that it doesn't happen. You know, the economy struggling, capitalism, you know, all that stuff. Like it shouldn't be down to uh the sex workers to be the excuse of why the country's shit. But yeah, that is the end of today's episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I have been speaking for about an hour and a half now. Um yeah. Um I will continue the next episode next week. Thank you very much for listening. This has been Behind the Powder Podcast for me Pulse and Victoria. Um yeah, please find us on Instagram. Uh we usually just use Instagram these days, honestly. Um we have um Apple, Spotify everywhere, honestly. If you liked any of the episodes, please give a review. Thank you very much. And I shall talk to you again.

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Bye.