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Hello and welcome back to the Hand of Podcast with me, Paulson Victoria. I hope everybody had a wonderful holiday and new year's. And yeah, let's get back to it. So we are going to be talking about the Nordic Model Now booklet. This is part two. We're going to be talking about pages 16 to 32. So if you didn't know about the previous episode, oh my lord, please go check that out. Nordic model now is basically propaganda when it comes to the Nordic model. They really want you to believe that the Nordic model is true and that it works and it's amazing when actually they don't give any facts, actual um professional studies on the Nordic model. They don't give actual studies on decriminalization, and it's just filled with lies, and it's very, very frustrating to see a women-led organization spout so much BS and claim that they want to protect women and girls when they know exactly what I went through because I've confronted them before and they've blocked me on all platforms. Um if you don't know, I was charged with brothel keeping based on the fact that I rented room uh a property out to other sex workers. It was a very safe environment, and everybody deserves a safe place to work, and I gave that to other sex workers as well as the public as well. Um they know what happened, they know how I've got PTSD and feared. I very much feared for my livelihood when I got charged, and they don't care, they don't care one bit. Um instead they asked me if I enjoyed the violence um that happened at my property, which is insane. So they do not care. And I'm here to spread the word that these are lies, that they are spreading, and I'm here with the truth, the facts, the actual evidence to um to combat what they've been saying. So, without further ado, what happened in Sweden, page 16. Sweden was the first country to introduce the Nordic model approach, and it has had the time and political will to iron out their implementation problems that are still seen in France and elsewhere. Okay, so they've already just said that there have been problems with the Nordic model in other countries. The results include significant decrease in the amount of prostitution taking place during a period of time it was rapidly increasing in most other European countries. No evidence it's gone quote underground as the sex in as the sex trade lobby claims. Sweden is now seen as a hostile destination by international sex traffickers. In spite of initial resistance, the law now has widespread public support. To find out more, we caught up with Lee, a representative of hashtag IntidinHorra, a Swedish organization of more than 100 people with experience of prostitution, some of whom are still involved in the industry, who are strongly who all strongly support the Nordic model approach. She said that in Sweden buying sex costs much more than in European countries where the sex trade is condoned. Quote, this makes the Johns furious, she said. Quote, you can often see them talking in online forums about how the hookers here in Sweden are spoilt, and how they wish it were more like Germany, where prices are less than half what they are in Sweden. This means that we don't need to see as many Johns to survive, and we can say no when we're uncomfortable. She countered the claim that the Nordic model pushes prostitution underground. The law makes little difference in this regard because they don't want their wife, girlfriend, or employer to find out. And anyway, most people want to have sex in private. The fact that in some countries the meeting place the meeting takes place in public areas doesn't mean that the selling part is safer. Women get killed every year in those small cubicles in the red light district in Amsterdam. And in Sweden we haven't yet had one reported. Murder of a person in prostitution by a John since the sex by a law was established in 1999. E.D. There's been a murder of one woman and one trans woman involved in prostitution by her ex-partner and a friend, respectively, not a punter or pimp. Intended her acknowledges that the law is not perfect, but they are adamant that it is indefinitely preferable to the alternative. The main problem is that the services are not good enough and they campaign for improvements. Right, so they've already just said that the services aren't good enough that the government's giving them, and they still have to campaign. So the government still isn't listening in Sweden to sex workers. Okay, so let's fact check with what they've said. So with what they've said, is partly true, but it's usually presented without important context. So we're gonna go into that context right now. The Swedish government um evaluations, including the 2008 and 2010 official reviews, do show a clear decline in street prostitution after the sex by law was introduced in 1999. That is the real part. What those same reports don't like also say is that measuring total prostitution is what those same reports also say, though, is that measuring total prostitution is extremely difficult. Indoor and online prostitution expanded during that same period. Obviously because of the law. Why would you want to be outside on the street? The police are watching, they're following you, they're harassing you. You know? And there wasn't just a boom in indoor and online prostitution. It wasn't just Sweden, it was across Europe. And it was largely due to the rise in the internet. You're thinking 1999 to 2010 when they did the last official review. A lot has happened in that time. So total prostitution, you you we don't have a reliable number. We don't have the data to prove a large overall decrease, especially because so much has happened between 1999 and 2010, and even 2008. And even the Swedish authorities, one, they have actually said that it has failed, and they then themselves have acknowledged that this is uncertainty that they don't know if um there has been like a proper decline in prostitution in general, but there has been a clear decline in street prostitution, but like we don't know how and when, you know, that there's a lot to take in, and it's crazy that they've only done um evaluations of the bill, well, the law, um, in 2008 and 2010. That's like nine years. Nine, eight years after when the law came into play. So their second claim is there's no evidence prostitution went underground. Well, this is just very misleading in general, and this is something which we hear in Scottish Parliament as well by Ash Regan. I I'm really hoping that if people years from now listen to the podcast, we don't know who Ash Regan is. Um just based on like the fact that we win decriminalisation rather than the Nordic model. Speaking of which, um the government will be voting on the Nordic model on the 15th of January. Um, I think at 10 to 4 till 6 or 5 o'clock, something like that. Yeah, I think it's till 5. We really need to start emailing our SMPs, our MPs, and like telling them about the Nordic model and how terrible it is and how we don't want it as sex workers and allies. It's not good for people in poverty. Um, I'm gonna leave a link in both part one and part two to email your SMPs. It is really important that we do this. Even if they come back and they're like, we're Tory scum, we don't believe in women's rights. Still email them. Still try our best because it's the only way to get through to people, even if they don't want to listen. We just keep hitting them with the hey, this is the true facts. I understand you you guys have been listening to Ash Regan and all her pals, but we really, really want decriminalization. So let's go back to there's no evidence prostitution went underground. So the Swedish government agencies and independent researchers both acknowledge displacement from street setting to indoor and online environments. Whether you call that going underground depends on politics, not evidence. But what's clear is that prostitution became less visible, not necessarily smaller or safer. Less visibility makes things harder to monitor, harder to research, and sometimes harder to access support, with multiple academics, which multiple academics have pointed out. So saying there's no evidence simply isn't true. There is evidence, it's just it's just often overlooked. Now let's go on to the next. The claim free is Sweden is a hostile destination for traffickers. Where does this come from? Oh, law enforcement assessments obviously, not from actual direct measurement. Swedish police and government agencies have said they believe the law makes Sweden less attractive to traffickers. That belief appears in official statements and policy documents. What we don't have is conclusive proof that the law itself caused a reduction in trafficking. Detection rates depend heavily on policing priorities, funding and reporting systems. More detection, more detected trafficking doesn't necessarily mean more trafficking. Less detected trafficking doesn't necessarily mean less trafficking. Even researchers who study trafficking urge caution here. Like when when people are trying to traffic people, they don't want to be told. they don't want to be like, they don't want to be seen or anything like that. There's nothing supporting their claims on this. Because you can't document it fully. Claim four is that the law has widespread public support. I mean, if you go back to the I will just quickly get up the Alba documentary programme, which was half an hour long, which I was a part of. Um where there it is. Um I will also leave this in the description as well. Um I was a part of a BBC series um called now this is in um Gaelic. Oh god, I'm gonna butcher this. I'm gonna butcher my Gaelic. I'm so sorry, Scottish people. Uh Europa wrote oh, I don't know. But I will link it in the description, and it was called Buying Sex, and it had um people from Sweden in it. And the sex worker in Sweden said it was terrible. Said that the law was bad. Please go check that out. Um yeah, please go check that out because it speaks volumes when an actual sex worker says, Hey, I am working in Sweden and it's horrific. So, and there was a few others as well, but they really get their wires crossed um when it comes to trafficking and sex work. Trafficking is not sex work, trafficking is trafficking, you are coerced into it. It is not a choice, it is completely different. So, yeah, it hasn't got widespread support at all or anything like that. And like public approval does not automatically equal improved safety or well-being for marginalized people. Popular policies can still be harmful, especially to those with fewer access to resources, um, insecure housing or precarious immigration status. Like support doesn't equal impact. It doesn't equal equality either. So claim five is the testimony from Inteddinhara. So the testimony, you know, is real, it's valid. Everybody has their valid point. You know, like every everybody has their own opinions, own history, own lives. And again, I'm not here to say, oh, this didn't happen when it comes to like an own personal experience. I mean, anybody can make anything up, so like it's really hard to see who's telling the truth and whatn't when there isn't any supported evidence or history or proof with that, but I I don't want to mistreat somebody on the ways of just saying, oh, what they're saying it's not valid and it's false or something like that, because I don't know, I didn't live their life or anything like that. Um but other Swedish groups with lived experience, including sex worker-led organizations and rights-based advocates, have published strong criticisms of the law, particularly around policing, stigma, and displacement. The booklet presents one survivor's perspective as representative, when the reality is that lived experience in Sweden is very deeply divided. Claim six higher prices mean fewer clients and more ability to say no. I'm not being funny, but if you've got fewer clients, depending on how many clients you get and what price and whereabouts you live, like it all depends. It is like any other self-employed business where you have to think about what's around you, what is the poverty rate, and what other people are providing as well around you. So this can be true for some, especially those who are citizens housed and not facing immigration enforcement. But research also shows that higher prices and criminalized buyers can increase pressure, rush negotiations, and risk taking for others. The experience described in the booklet is not universal, and it's risky to generalize it as a structural benefit. I have been there where I've hired my prices, I've had fewer clients, and I've been there where I've lowered my prices, and I've had more clients or I've had fewer clients. Oh where it set when they talked about higher prices and was that in the same part? Yes, it was. Um, men will complain about anything. Like who you kidding? Men will fucking complain about anything. Like, yes, men have their forums, but again, why are women getting the blame for how men talk and how men act? It's not my fault that like he arrived at my house and he thought it was dirty, or um he didn't like the perfume that I put on or my lipstick, or he's just straight up telling lies about how fishy my fanny was or something like that. Like the like men will drag you through the mud. People will drag you through the mud. Like, if you read Revolt and Prostitutes, or if you listen to the audio uh book, which I did, um you will know that in England there was a punter forum where they literally went on strike, the punters, so that the sex workers would lower their lower their prices because the punters thought it was too expensive. Men will complain about anything. And they will try their best to lowball you as well and haggle and everything like that. So this is there's so many denominations? Is that the right word? There's so many things that higher prices mean fewer clients and more availability to say, well, no, actually, if I don't get that many fucking clients, I'm gonna have to say fucking yes to the next bloke, no matter what, really, because I need my bills paid. Like it works for some and it works for others, and it might work this week and it might not work next month. Oh, it's so frustrating. Cause it so depends. It depends on the weather, it depends if there's school holidays, it depends if you yourself have availability. Um it depends on like if it's sunny out, if people would rather go to beach or like go on holiday. Like people don't want to go out in the snow. Oh, what if fucking COVID happens again? Like, it's so bullshit. It's so annoying. So claim seven, no murders by Johns since 1999. Uh so yeah, this this one, like, it can definitely like hit a chord with people where it's like, oh wow, this must be really working if no sex workers have been murdered. And like, it's technically true that Sweden has no officially recorded murder clearly classified as being committed by a client against a person in prostitution. But people involved in prostitution have been murdered. Attribution depends on classification. Indoor and online settings reduce visibility, absence of recorded cases does not equal absence of violence. Even the booklet's own editor's note quietly acknowledges this nuance by stating how there has been a murder of one woman and one trans woman involved in prostitution by her ex-partner and a friend, um, but not a punter or a pimp. Like, it this claim really relies on narrow definitions, not comprehensive safety data. Again, I'm not being funny, but would you trust the government just in general? Especially when so many sex workers are coming out and saying, hey, the Nordic model doesn't work. And legalization uh yeah, legalization doesn't work, and um having prostitution illegal doesn't work. Decriminalisation New Zealand, it does work. Claim A, women get killed every year in Amsterdam cubicles. Uh well this is frickin' exaggerated. There have been murders of sex workers in the Netherlands, yeah. But every year is not supported by official crime statistics, and it's used here for the emotional impact rather than the fucking accuracy, the factual accuracy. So I want to talk about the murders in Amsterdam. There was Bernadette in 2009, she was stabbed in her workroom. There was a murder of a 19-year-old woman stabbed in the Red Light District Workroom in 2014. So the evidence does not support the claim that sex workers are murdered every single year in Amsterdam. The cases are the 2009 Bernadette and the one in 2014. Which are several years apart, they're not an annual occurrence. There are older cases over decades. Um for example, historical murders from like the 1950s or earlier, but they're not a part of modern continuous pattern of yearly homicides tied directly to prostitution law changes. So the whole lie of women get killed every year in the small cubicles in the red light district is so false. It's so exaggerated for emotional impact, and there is no actual clear evidence on the murders. Um but yeah, that's that's what I could find where they were murdered in their cubicles in their workspaces. It's not supported by any public records. It's just absolutely unbelievable that somebody would say this and try to convince other people. So their final claim is the Nordic model is infinitively preferable. Well, that's clearly not true. It ignores documented concerns about eviction through third-party policing, surveillance rather than support, income loss, migrant vulnerability, lack of viable exit options. And these issues are widely discussed with Annasty International, with the World Health Organization, with sex worker-led organizations, and with sex workers themselves. They tell partial truths, but they're really selective about survivor testimonies and very narrow definitions to suggest a level of safety and success that the evidence does not conclusively support. Now, it doesn't mean that the Nordic model has no benefits. It means the story is far more complicated than this booklet wants to admit. One thing the Scottish Government is right now trying to get us to do is they want sex workers to talk about how they would make changes to the bill. I mean, we want we don't want a bill in the first place, but they have asked us this is like the SMPs. Um they have asked us what would we want to change about the Nordic model, but they do want to have the Nordic model, which really sucks. So now we're going on to the next page where there is a Swedish survivor speaks out. Kasha, another Swedish sex trade survivor, talks about how when she was involved in prostitution, it was a huge comfort to know that the Swedish Nordic model law was on her side. She went on to say, quote, the Nordic model law also protects a lot of people from the sex industry. If prostitution were to become the norm, it would be marketed as such. Small girls would learn that their bodies are products that can be sold and bought, and that this is totally normal. Young girls who have problems with money would walk by brothels every day. So they'd probably start with that instead of having a weekend job, and there'd be social and economic problems as a result. The Nordic model law makes it harder for people to capitalize on our prostitution. We don't have as many pimps because it's illegal. Okay, so again, I'm not here to say that anything's false or anything like that. I'm here to give like my own thoughts and views and facts and evidence when it comes to the Nordic model. Again, we're only hearing from the people um with a certain lived experienced lived experience. We're not uh hearing people who have had a bad lived experience, um, who have reported the opposite, which is increased fear, stigma, surveillance, and instability. We don't know when she was in the sex trade. Um we don't know if she was in it when this law came into play. Um we don't know if there was exit strategies to her. We don't know. You can't assume that it's true for everybody where it comes to Swedish law, Nordic model, law is great and everything like that. So yeah, I as I said, like, there's no um she doesn't mention the protection from the sex industry. The Swedish government reports do not claim the law prevents people from entering prostitution in a provable way. Entry into sex work is strongly correlated with poverty, housing insecurity, migrant status, and the lack of social support. Factors the law does not eliminate nor improve. So if prostitution became the norm, girls would see their bodies as products. I honestly have to disagree with this. I feel like this is a hypothetical future scenario and it's not supported by any evidence or any data or anything like that. There is no data showing that decriminalization causes girls to view their bodies as commodities. Me personally, I feel like if you hold that rhetoric, I feel like that's the right word, if you have those views on women's bodies, then you're going to show that to other people. That's what you're going to portray. That's what you're going to put in the minds of kids. Whereas you're not actually showing them facts, you're not showing them data that this is actually true. Instead, you're just being no better than anybody else who has tried to persuade people a certain narrative. We've no evidence. Kind of sounds very familiar like the Nazis. But yeah, you know, there's no evidence that children in decriminalization um are more likely to enter sex work. There's no evidence that brothel visibility leads to higher youth entry compared to poverty and um inequality. Young people enter sex work primarily due to economic pressure, not cultural normalization. Me personally, I went into sex work because I couldn't afford the bills. I had a like quote normal job, and I worked at McDonald's from the age of 16 to 19, and I started sex work when I was 18.

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I couldn't afford shit. It was terrible.

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And the quote, girls with money problems would choose prostitution over weekend jobs. Well, firstly, personally speaking, is that weekend job suitable? Is she be gonna are they gonna be flexible with their hours? You don't like, do they have a child? Do they need to be flexible? Are they doing uni? Are they doing college? You know, like is um are they caring for a parent? Are they caring for somebody? Like, is there reasons why they can't get weekend jobs? Are there reasons why they can't get like a quote unquote normal job? Are they neurodivergent? Are they disabled? And like again, there is no evidence that large numbers of teenagers or young women, because again, this is all gendered, isn't it? If like we're on page what 18 now, and all of them mention it is just women and girls. They don't care about the men. They don't care about the like young boys and such, if they're gonna use the word young women or young girls. There is no evidence that large numbers of teenagers or young women casually enter prostitution because it's normalized. I personally actually say to people, do not go into this profession unless you are prepared to get a fuck ton of stigma. It's not it's not a nice industry because of the setbacks that we have. Um, you know, we are dealing with men who can be arrogant assholes who want to get their way in things, but we have zero protections. We can't work together. That's illegal. And it's still illegal under the Nordic model. Like entry into sex work typically involves financial desperation, lack of alternatives, social marginalization. Oh in countries with decriminalization like New Zealand, there is no evidence of this. That mass youth entering sex work due to normalization. The Nordic model makes it harder to capitalize on prostitution. Again, it's partly true, but it's very incomplete. It is true that the Swedish model criminalizes third-party profiteering. However, research shows this can also push third parties underground. You know, underground doesn't exist, make safety infrastructure harder to access, increase informal or hidden control rather than eliminate it. Swedish and normal Nordic model research acknowledges that third parties still exist. Exploitation can persist in less visible forms. So then we have we don't have many pimps because it's illegal. Well, that depends entirely on how pimp is defined. Um Scotland for Decrim have been called a pimping lobby. So, and we've all been called pimps from Ash Regan herself. So it really just depends um how you perceive the word pimp. So, you know, like do we control um are we com coercive controllers and traffickers? Like, I know, like it's crazy that we have sex workers have been called pimps by government officials, um, here in Scotland at least. That we can definitely say we have been. Um like informal fare parties still do exist. Partners, drivers, landlords, and facilitators may still have like some sort of power. So like they can be defined as pimps. I know my partner at the time has been accused of you know being my pimp and stuff, and like it is very much a worry that if I do have a male, mainly, um, in my apartment for safety, that if my client sees, he then is going to assume that I've got a fucking pimp. And it's it's it's horrible. There is no reliable data showing a clear reduction in exploitative control overall, only changes in form and detection. This can't be proven. Again, it's not evidence-based. So, and then the next page is what do the numbers tell us? There is little reliable data about the sex industry in any country, regardless of the regime in force. Even under Germany's regulated system, the sex industry is the only German industry for which there are no reliable statistics about the numbers involved. This lack of robust data suggests a lack of political will to fully investigate the reality. Any data on the sex trade must therefore be considered approximations. Notwithstanding these limitations, we used publicly available data to create the following chart that presents the numbers involved in prostitution in six countries as a percentage of the population. This shows that a much smaller proportion of the population is involved in prostitution under the Nordic model in Sweden, Norway, and France than under legalization and full decriminalization in Germany. The Netherlands and New Zealand. This suggests that the Nordic model is effective in containing the sex industry, if not in reducing its size, at least in preventing its growth. Oh my god, this is insane. This is insane. So yeah, basically they've got a graph. Germany is high up there in the percentage of population in prostitution, then Netherlands is smaller, and then New Zealand's a little bit bigger, and then Sweden is obviously the fucking smallest, and Norway and France. Oh my god, this is so messed up. I can't. I honestly can't. So they've already just admitted there's not enough like statistics and stuff. Um, accurate statistics when it comes to Germany. Like, again, Germany's not fucking perfect. By far. Germany is not perfect in the slightest. It has legalization. We don't want legalization for the sole purpose of what Germany has produced with legalization. It's not the greatest at all. Um, again, if you want to go back to the Miss May episode, which um we did about her time in Berlin and Germany in a country which has legalization. Um it's not the greatest. Go check that out. It's really, really good actually hearing from somebody who is from that industry um and that area. Oh so, you know, what I've just read it explicitly states that there is little reliable data on the size of the sex industry in any country, and that all figures are approximations. Yet it then uses the same estimates to draw firm conclusions about which legal model is quote effective. If the data is unreliable and non-comparable, they cannot legitimately be used to rank countries or legal regimes. The chart honestly compares figures drawn from different sources, years, mythologies, and legal contexts without accounting for how criminalization of buyers suppresses visibility and reporting under the Nordic model. Lower recorded numbers in Sweden, Norway, and France reflect reduced detectability and disclosure, not proven reductions in participation. By contrast, decriminalization and legalization, systems produce higher estimates precisely because sex work is more visible and more measurable, and the sex workers actually feel a bit more safer coming out and talking to the government and researchers and such. Like at best, this chart shows differences in measurement and reporting, not differences in industry size or growth. Presenting it as evidence that the Nordic model contains prostitution is a method methodical leap in the data that does not support. So we're gonna go on to page 19. Health and safety. One of the arguments for decriminalization is that it would mean that prostitution would come under health and safety regulations. Let's think this through. Here are some safety instructions from the UK Health and Safety Executive HSE for workers who are exposed to bodily fluids. Oh my god, are we Are we being serious? I'm sorry, I'm so I like I'm sorry this isn't the part right now to fact check and whatnot, but are you serious? Insane. So, bullet pointed, avoid contact with blood or bodily fluids. Take all necessary precautions to prevent puncture wounds, cuts, and abrasions in the presence of blood and bodily fluids. Protect all breaks in exposed skin by means of waterproof dressing or slash andor slash gloves. Protect the eyes and mouth by means of a visor or goggles slash safety spectacles and a mask when splashing is a possibility. Avoid contamination of the person or or clothing by use of waterproof slash water resistant protective clothing, plastic apron, etc. Wear rubber boots or plastic disposable overshoes when the floor or ground is likely to be contaminated. Before we consider whether it is possible for prostitution to be comparable with these working practices, let's remember its actual nature. Andrea DeWaakin, who was herself in prostitution, describes it like this Prostitution is the mouth, the vagina, the rectum, the penetrated usually by a penis, sometimes hands, sometimes objects by one man and then another, and then another and then another. It is not surprising therefore to find that women in prostitution suffer from frequent abrasions and tears in the vagina, mouth, anus, and rectum caused by friction and mechanical trauma. Punters not only ejaculate in women's orifices but also on their faces and bodies and some want to urinate or even defecate on her. Some punters may want her to penetrate his anus and rectum with dildos and similar objects which can lead to fecal matter being sprayed over a wide area. How is it possible for this to conform to HSE safe practices? Condoms hardly provide even basic protection and it's what and it's well known that punters often refuse to wear them or take them off midway. Is it ethical to expect vulnerable young women to be exposed to serious health risks that all other workers have a legal right to be protected from. And what would the implications be for other workers of normalizing such unsafe practices? Health and safety guidelines also give employers a responsibility to take measures to minimize workplace psychological risks. Research has found that prostitution has a profoundly negative impact on women's mental health. For example, one study of 193 women involved in prostitution found a high rate of psychological and mental ill health and concluded that prostitution is itself a major public health problem. This applies to prostitution per se regardless of the setting or legal framework in place when it occurs. Women who've had first hand experience in the legalized brothels in Australia and the decriminalised brothels in New Zealand testify that the health and psychological risks remain highly remain intolerably high, but the risks don't end there. Pontive violence is commonplace and women involved in prostitution have been found to have the highest risk of murder of any social group and a mortality rate 12 times higher than women in the general population. We need to think long and hard about whether we want to support full decriminalization which legitimizes and normalizes an industry that is incompatible with standard health and safety norms and that causes serious long-term physical and mental health problems or whether it is better to support the Nordic model which implicitly recognizes the harms involved and focuses on preventions and reducing the size of the industry and the numbers involved in it while providing those caught up in it with a viable transition out. Right. This is a doozy people who choose to go in this industry some aren't aware of the bad sides of it and that's why I warn people we should be warning people about the bad sides of sex work absolutely again I'm not saying that's peachy far by it because there are people like this who send the narrative of basically it causes serious long-term physical and mental health problems. For some potentially I'm not denying that for others like me I'm fucking thriving you have to be a sort of a type of person to do this work to choose this work. You have to be a sort sort of person to be able to deal with men trying to haggle trying to slip off the condom midway because it does happen. I'm not here to say that everything they're saying isn't true. So right I'm gonna go through this bit by bit as I usually do because there is a lot with it and I don't want to like muddle everything up. So what they're saying here they haven't fucking implemented it with the Nordic model in general is very hypocritical honestly where they're talking about health and safety and they haven't implemented anything to do with health and safety when it comes to Sweden France Norway anywhere with the Nordic model they haven't implemented any of this so they're also damaging themselves by saying all of this because they don't provide any of that I did have to have a giggle low where it was like protect the eyes and mouth by means of a visor and got could you fucking imagine a guy wants to give me a facial or something like that and you know I'm just like let me just put my visor on like there are some people who don't have a choice to turn down clients because of poverty because they have to pay their bills and we don't want that. This isn't again this isn't addressing poverty. This is basically shaming women for letting men ejaculate on their face for having sex with numerous men this isn't okay and again I'm not here to say that frequent abrasions and tears don't happen. Hey they do I've been there I've been there where like it's it feels awkward to ask a guy to use lube because they might reply with oh you know wet for me and like get completely turned off or they might get abusive. And it's just awkward in general because then you have to explain how it can take up to usually on average up to 40 minutes for a girl to actually well for a woman to actually get turned on and produce wetness and you know guys don't understand that they don't know that because they haven't been taught it. But just even if you are not horny and not wet you know you still have to have some type of lubricant and all depends on your boundaries if you want them if you're okay with them coming on your face and things like hey if you need to pay the bills and you have to you know cut one of your boundaries because the rent's due I and the rest of people who want decriminalization are not going to shame you for that which I feel like this leaflet really is doing and that it's horrible it's horrible to think that you're getting shamed straight off the bat um yeah like I I'm not here to say that you know abrasions and tears to the vagina mouth anus rectum caused by friction and mechanical trauma doesn't happen. It does yeah but how are we going to combat that because all they've said in these two pages are just bringing an audic model. Where is your data that bringing in an Nordic model has been able to avoid um trauma and such like I'm not being funny I understand that in my job that a guy could come in with a knife and stab me. A guy could walk into the NHS and stab a nurse. Anybody can come up to you and stab you anybody can do that we are dealing with men sometimes on a daily basis this is a misogyny issue this is a male violence against women issue this isn't a oh well you let him into your house you let him come all over your face this isn't a blame game when it comes to the sex worker that's that's not right w we're doing this to pay our bills we don't want to be scrutinized doing this but because of how society sees sex work it's scrutinized and there is more stigma. Again everything I've just said they haven't put into place for their own uh Nordic model. Like the health and safety executive materials are intended for healthcare workers, laboratory staff, cleaners handling hazardous waste and emergency responders these guidelines are for accidental or unavoidable exposure to bodily fluids as a hazard not consensual intimate contact if you are trafficked if you are coerced by a partner or a family member that's trafficking it is not sex work. Sex work is when you consent I I just really hope that trafficking laws improve and like the HSE guide guidance explicitly recognizes that different industries require different risk frameworks. There's not one size fits all safety model there never is in anything now does decriminalization mean sex work must follow HSE rules? No It doesn't it doesn't mean sex workers have to wear goggles visors treated uh sex must be treated like hazardous waste I'm sorry that's that's coming into like sex being a taboo basically like you're talking about how calm and fluids are hazardous waste and sex is like very taboo like that's what this is portraying and we don't want the next generation to think that I just can't believe that hot condoms hardly provide basic protection. CODOMs are one of the most effective public health tools ever developed which is why um they've drastically reduced HIV and STI transmission and they're ex yeah transmission and they are endorsed by the World Health organizations and national public health bodies worldwide which is why the World Health Organization is so against the Nordic model because when poverty is in play with the Nordic model you most likely say yes to m other clients that you don't really want to take on because you need to pay the bills this has been proven when the Nordic model has come into play there is more likely clients who do want to take off the condom because they know they can get away with it. They know that the sex workers need the money this hasn't proven the World Health Organization has literally said we are against the Nordic model we want decriminalization because it will help reduce HIV and SDI transmission. That's insane like yes what is true is that clients sometimes resist condoms and this is precisely why criminalising clients makes enforcement harder not easy. Under decriminalization workers have stronger ability to refuse clients better legal standing to insist on condom use and safer reporting mechanisms. Now I'll tell you now with how Scotland has it as they view sex work currently I was stealthed a few years ago but I was sharing an apartment with another sex worker and so it doesn't give a shit if I was stealth because I was breaking the law by essentially brothel keeping sharing an apartment with another sex worker. I was too scared to go to the police I'm gonna be even more scared if the Nordic model comes into play is it ethical to expose vulnerable young women to these risks well that's a moral argument and it's not a factual one and it's got so many assumptions it assumes all sex workers are vulnerable young women and that they lack agency and harm is inherent and unavoidable like what this totally erases older workers migrants with professional um strategies disabled workers neurodivergent workers um every other fucking worker people who prefer sex work to other labor options ethical debates are valid but they are not evidence mental health does prostitution itself cause harm regardless of legal framework while this is heavily contested and overstated the CITES studies typically show high rates of trauma, PTSD, depression but crucially they often sample people already in high marginalized conditions many involve um street based or criminalized contexts they rarely control adequately for poverty prior abuse prior abuse homelessness migrant stress multiple systematic reviews show that criminalization itself worsens mental health outcomes while decriminalization and labor protections improve access to care and autonomy. The claim that prostitution is inherently damaging regardless of legal framework is not a settled scientific conclusion so we've got the testimony from Australia and New Zealand brothels about how women who have had firsthand experience in the legalized brothels in Australia and decriminalized brothels in New Zealand testify that the health and psychological risks remain intolerably high. Well some workers in legal or decriminalized brothels hey they do report physical strain burnout hey everybody gets burnout and boundary pressure I mean even in an office you can be pressured into a boss flirting with you and being an absolute dick and other reports are safer working conditions better negotiation power lower violence like both things can be true like again like I'm not saying everything's fucking peachy um with decriminalization with sex work no it's not no that's why we're here that's why I'm speaking today because it's not peachy we need to change but the Nordic model is not a change like the booklet includes only negative testimonies and it excludes positive or mixed accounts um and it treats these personal antidotes as proof that's selection bias and it's not evidence. So then we have sex workers have the highest risk of murder of any social group um it's a really misleading claim. The often cited figure twelve times higher mortality comes from studies of street-based sex workers in highly criminalized environments with overlapping factors like homelessness and drug prohibition it cannot be generalized to all sex workers or all legal frames even researchers who publish these figures warn against this misuse and Andrea Dworkin um well she was a radical feminist an abolitionist not a neutral uh analyst writing from a specific ideological position so you know moral standings um it's not medical it's not occupational um health assessment with how she's framed stuff and how she speaks about things um she doesn't establish a factual claim about health and safety um she's a terrible person if you look up more into her she's not the she's no no she's the worst radical feminist um abolitionist type um very very much moral standings doesn't give a shit about anybody else which is how everybody else with the Nordic model is giving which that what that's what they're doing they don't care about people who it properly affects when the people who it properly affects are saying hey we don't want this they don't care they will try and shush us um so the core logical failure um this argument assumes if sex work cannot meet maximum industrial or biohazard standards it must be abolished now I'm not being funny but like it if my work is abolished uh I'm gonna struggle massively massively but we do not apply the logic to care work childbirth contact sports nursing domestic labor instead we need to instead we reduce risk increase auto autonomy improve conditions that is exactly what yeah instead we need to reduce risk increase autonomy improve conditions and this is exactly what decriminalization aims to do this health and safety argument relies on applying industrial biohazard rules to consensual intimate labour which is a category error it exaggerates risk misinterprets how workplace safety law actually functions and ignores evidence that criminalization itself is a major driver of harm So now we go into page 21. What does the homicide data tell us? Oh my lord. So it says Germany legal prostitution liberalized in 2002, additional regulation introduced in 2017, population 84 million, murders of women involved in prostitution between 2000 and 2021 was 103. What that doesn't make any sense. Sweden. Nordic model introduced in 1999. Population 10 million. Murders of women and trans women involved in prostitution. 2000 between 2000 and 2000 and Oh it says tw 21. Sorry, it's really small. Um so that was for Germany 2000 between 2000 and 2021. And for Sweden it it it's all the same. Oh my god, no, it's not. Oh my god, right, okay. Um Sweden is 2000. Between 2000 and 2021. Um, and that was two people. Huh. Okay. Um so that's just involved in prostitution, not by the hands of huh. Okay. Right. So then the Netherlands, prostitution legalised in 2000. Prostitu uh population 18 million, murders of women involved in prostitution, 2000 to 2020, 30 women. Again, they're not caring about anybody who isn't a woman. New Zealand prostitution decriminalized in 2003, population 5 million, murders of women involved in prostitution between 2003 and 2021, 11 people. Norway, they have the Nordic model introduced in 2009, population six million, murders of women involved in prostitution between 2010 and 2020 one woman. France Nordic model introduced in 2016, population 65 million, murders of women involved in prostitution between 2016 and 2021 is twelve. Okay, let's dive into this then. So the chart in itself is highly misleading and methodically not right. It compares raw homicide counts across countries over different time periods with different population sizes, different legal start dates, and different definitions of who is counted. And then implies um causation from legal model alone. The figures are not standardized by time frame, rate per capita, size of sex working population or reporting practices. For example, Germany's numbers are presented over a much longer period and a vastly larger population than Sweden or Norway, while France's count is drawn from a much shorter post-law window yet is higher than New Zealand's, directly contradicting the claim that the Nordic model reduces lethal violence. Crucially, homicide data tells us nothing about overall safety. Murder is an extremely rare outcome and a poor proxy for everyday risk. Focusing on it obscures non-fatal violence, coercion, robbery, assault, stalking, and unsafe working conditions, all of which are harder to report and measure under client criminalization. Finally, the source cited sexindustry kills.de is an advocacy-run database, not an official crime statistics body, and relies on media reports rather than comprehensive national data. Using this to draw policy conclusions about legal models is not evidence-based. This chart really does demonstrate selective presentation and false equivalence, not that the Nordic model makes people in prostitution safer. Uh I just can't I just It literally doesn't write itself. And then they go on to say this graphic shows the number of known murders of women involved in prostitution in six countries, along with population size. Most of these murders were committed by pimps or punters. Well, actually, you've already just said Sweden's wasn't. So I don't really think it should be included on there because it's kind of irrelevant then. Because they weren't killed by pimps or punters. Instead they were killed by, what was it, a partner and a family friend or something like that. Three of these countries, Germany, the Netherlands, and New Zealand, have some form of legalization or decriminalization, and three, Sweden, Norway, and France have the Nordic model. We need to have caution when comparing such data between countries, particularly as the data is not all for the same time period. We also need to bear in mind that these numbers are likely to be an underestimate because, for example, many women involved in prostitution are isolated and are not reported if they disappear. What is clear, however, is that this data is not support does not support the often repeated idea that the Nordic model is more dangerous for women. The Nordic model doesn't make prostitution safe any more than full decriminalization does, because nothing can make it safe for women. However, when well implemented, the Nordic model can reduce the amount of prostitution that takes place, and the number of new women being drawn into it. It also provides routes out for those embedded in it. The Swedish and Norwegian murder statistics suggest that this approach can work. The French data is concerning but relative to the size of the population. It is lower than the murder rate in New Zealand. It takes time for a radical new approach to be implemented. And as France is a big country, we would expect it to take longer than in a smaller country, like in Sweden and Norway. It was also the last of these three countries to introduce the Nordic model in 2016. A man who buys the favours of a woman does not see her as a comrade or as a person with equal rights. The concept he has for the prostitute whose favours he has bought affects his attitude to all women. We're gonna do this bit by bit because I'm already frustrated with especially that last bit. Because it just really wows us. So this bit of the argument, it it knows the limits. It acknowledges the limits of the data, but then proceeds to draw conclusions the data cannot support. If the figures are incomplete, inconsistent across time periods, and likely to underestimate violence, they cannot be used to demonstrate the relative safety or effectiveness of one legal model over another. The claim that the data, quote, does not support the idea that the Nordic model is more dangerous is not the same evidence that it is safer. Homicide is an extremely rare outcome and a poor proxy for overall safety. Differences in recorded murders say nothing about non-fatal violence, isolation or reduced ability to screen clients, all of which are well-documented concerns under client criminalization. Ascertains that the Nordic model reduces prostitution or provides effective exit routes are not supported by the homicide data presented and rely on the assumptions rather than demonstrated casual links. Explaining away France's higher numbers by population size, implemented time, or scale further highlights how fragile and speculative these comparisons are. In short, this section uses weak and non-comparable data to make policy claims that go well beyond what the evidence can actually justify. It's honestly ridiculous. And again, with that last statement, misogyny, mate, we need to teach kids. We've started in England to teach kids about uh misogyny, but it needs to get better and we need to stop blaming the women. Or if you use your body in this way, then men are gonna do this, men are gonna do that. It shouldn't be our problem that men can't control themselves and they want to do certain things. It's not right, it's not nice. Okay, so then we have page 23. We're nearly at the end, people. We've got less than 10 pages left. So it starts off saying rampid racism. The sex industry is not only sexist but also profoundly racist. Again, that is not the women's fault, that is not the sex workers' faults. We cannot control the narrative to a certain extent.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:58

Um I'm gonna butcher this name.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:04

Hoshki Mao was, with interruptions, engaged in prostitution in Germany for ten years. She talks about the racism within the prostitution system, how racially discriminated women enter prostitution in disproportionate numbers, and how the system itself fetishizes ethnicity. This Hong Kong brothel advert illustrates this. It categorizes the women by ethnic origin, race is used as a key selling point of the women who are being treated as a product or commodity. Hashki Mao describes mega brothels in Germany where the women are on different floors according to their ethnicity. Romanian women on one floor, Asian women on the next, African women on the next, and so on. She describes this as a apparent system and points out the racist language that pointers use against women is visible for all to be seen on Punta Forums. We must ask whether an industry that routinely gets away with this kind of overt and degrading racism that is no longer accepted in mainstream society can be safe for women and particularly for women of colour. A British survivor speaks out. Quote, I am a twenty nine year old white middle class female who now works in academia. I worked in the sex industry from the age of seventeen to twenty one. I started in lap dancing clubs and then moved on to both agency-based and brothel prostitution. At the time, I would have said that prostitution was my informed choice. I focused on the benefits, e.g., meeting new people, money, glamour, excitement, not having to work a regular job, and was not aware of slow, insidious, accumulative effects it was having on me. Nor had I really examined the reason why I had even reached the decision that this was a viable or seemingly appealing option for me in the first place. Hint, I was a victim of childhood sexual abuse, something that will and without a doubt make you feel that your body is both worthless and paradoxically the only object through which you can gain worth and approval. This is what angers me about the sex work debate. People rarely think about why middle-class well-educated women enter prostitution to begin with. Childhood sexual abuse does not discriminate against class, and it has been shown to have occurred in exponentially disproportionate rates in women working in the sex industry, women from all backgrounds working at all levels of the industry. This is not a fact that is questioned, however, and instead these women are held up as shining examples of success of both prostitution and ironically female empowerment. In my opinion, the statistics on women in the sex industry who have survived childhood sexual abuse are enough to build policy upon. This brings me on to the second point which annoys me in relation to this debate, the effects of it. Nobody speaks of these quote happy hookers after they have left prostitution. This is when the effects of it catch up with you. You simply cannot forget years and years of swallowing down your consent. Of swallowing down what is, at best, disgust, irritation, and boredom during sex, and at worst anger, humiliation and terror. After you have lived through that, it is fundamentally impossible to have anything near a happy, healthy, and normal life. By this I mean a life where you can can at a very basic level trust and connect to others, men in particular, and alongside this, feel okay about your own body, humanity and worth, and these things will be consistent everyday battles. Since leaving prostitution, I have struggled with chronic depression, flashbacks, anorexia, and self-harm. I have not been off psychiatric medication or out of therapy. I have never been able to enjoy sex or be in a loving relationship. The sex industry, by which I mean the legally sanctioned rape, humiliation, devaluation, and degradation of women has robbed me of all these things. I do not believe by decriminalizing this violent and horrific patriarchal institution that we make women safer, measure by measure, to criminalize this industry. Not only will make potential sex workers, current sex workers, and ex-sex workers safer, physically and perhaps most importantly physiologically, but in addition to this, we make all women safer, safer from the absolute tyranny, which is men's blind belief in their entitlement to dehumanitize women and to purchase consent, whether that is financially or through one of the multiple other inconnected yet equally legitimated means through which women's ability to say no is held to ransom under the patriarchy. Oh my god, there is a lot to break down there, and I will share my experiences on a few things. Um but we will we we will go in order. Right, so we're gonna start with racism in the industry. Absolutely. There is racism in the industry, there is racism everywhere you look. You know, I it's not wrong. It's not wrong. There will there will always be racism, no matter where. Now I can't really talk about Germany that much when it comes to the brothel, um, because I've never been. I've never been. Um every brothel has their rules and you just have to abide by them, or you can sue them. But in Germany, you're more likely to lose because they have legalization, same if they had the Nordic model. Again, if you want to go back to New Zealand, where a sex worker actually succeeded in prosecuting um their employer because of I think it was sexual harassment, they actually won. And that was because it was decriminalization and it was so sex work was actually a job. So racism, fetishization, and discrimination, they exist in the industry. Absolutely, in any industry. They they exist across many labor markets shaped by migration, gender equality, and racial hierarchy. Acknowledging this harm is is really essential, it is. However, this section again relies on individual testimony and extreme examples to argue against decriminalization itself, rather than against racism, exploitation, and labor abuse more broadly. Accounts from Husky Mao describe conditions within Germany's legalized, highly commercialized system, which is not equivalent to decriminalization. Germany's mega brothel model emerged precisely because legalization incentivized large-scale corporate ownerships and stratified labour, dynamics that are also present in other migrant heavy industries such as agriculture, domestic work, and care work. These harms are driven by migrant policy, economic inequality, and weak labour protections, not by the removal of criminal penalties for sex workers. The existence of radical fetishization does not demonstrate that criminalization or the Nordic model offers greater protection for women of colour. In fact, research from Nordic model countries shows that radicalized and migrant sex workers are often more heavily policed, more likely to be displaced, and less able to access support because client criminalization increases surveillance while leaving workers without labour rights. Survivor testimony, including from British and German women, deserves respect and should inform policy. Absolutely. But it cannot be treated as representative or diminutive. Other survivors and currently working sex workers, including women of colour, report that decriminalization improves their ability to refuse clients, work together, and report abuse. Lived experience exists on all sides. And framing the industry as inherently and irredeemably racist risks foreclosing meaningful solutions. Racism is not eliminated by criminalization. It is exacerbated when work is driven underground, when migrants lack legal protections, and when stigma prevents access to justice. Addressing racism requires enforceable labour rights, migration protections and anti discrimination measures, not punitive legal models that have been shown to disproportionately harm the most marginalized. And then when the British woman talks about major harm, like As I said, like it deserves to be acknowledged without me being an asshole about it in the ways of like oh what you went through doesn't matter. It does matter, absolutely. Trauma, childhood, um, sexual abuse, dissociation, and long-term physiological uh psychological injury are real experiences for many people who are involved in the sex industry. Nothing in a protocriminalization position requires denying that that denying that reality. However, this argument makes a critical bloody leap. It treats correlation as causation and individual trauma as a sufficient basis for universal criminal policy. The fact that childhood sexual abuse is disproportionately present among people in the sex industry is not disputed. What is disputed is the claim that criminalizing industry or clients meaningfully prevents that harm or addresses its root causes. Childhood sexual abuse precedes entry into sex work. Criminal law applied later cannot undo it.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:17

If you are abused as a child, that's unforgivable.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:24

That's absolutely unforgivable, but that shouldn't lean upon sex work. It doesn't undo what happened. Make new laws or exit routes or support systems for people with childhood sexual abuse. The argument assumes that the appropriate response to trauma is to receive remove agency from those currently in the industry. That is a philosophical and political position, not an empirical one. Many survivors, including survivors of sexual childhood abuse, report that criminalization worsened their trauma by increasing secrecy, stigma, fear of the police, economic pressure, isolation. Survivor testimony exists on both sides, which is precisely why testimony alone cannot determine policy. The repeat framing of sex work as quote legally sanctioned rape reflects a deeply held personal truth for this speaker. But it is not a legal or sociological definition that can be universally applied. Defining all paid sex as rape collapses crucial distinctions around consent, coercion, survival strategies, and agency distinctions that are necessary if we are to protect those most at risk. When everything is defined as violence, it becomes harder, not easier, to identify and intervene in actual violence. The claim that decriminalization worsens psychological harm is also not supported by any professional evidence. Jurisdictions that have criminalized sex work show improved availability to refuse clients, work collectively, you know, together, which is illegal under the Nordic model. Access healthcare and report abuse, all factors associated with reduced harm. None of this makes sex work harmless, but it does undermine the claim that criminalization is inherently safer. The argument that criminalizing the sex industry will make, quote, all women safer, is ideological rather than evidential. There is no credible evidence that the Nordic model reduces male violence more broadly, changes patriarchal entitlement, or improves outcomes for women outside prostitution. What it demonstrably does is increase surveillance and policing of already marginalized women, particularly migrants, women of colour, and those with least social capital. This testimony should inform exit services, trauma-informed care, income support, housing, and long-term mental health provisions. It does not justify criminalizing others whose experiences, needs, and conclusions differ. Policy built on harm must reduce harm, not replace one form of coercion with another. Me, personally speaking, I wasn't, to my knowledge, sexually abused as a child, but I came from poverty. I came from parents who hit me, I came from parents who didn't like me very much. I came from a very, I would say, strict background in terms of values as a person and how to hold yourself, and women should do this, and men should do this. And this is how you should grow up. I dealt with a lot as a kid. You could say well there was gonna try not to cry. There was the time? Well, yeah, okay, yeah, I did. I was oh my god, this is crazy. I was sexually abused as a child in terms of not family members, but it was a random guy who I met and trigger warning. And I was in a situation where I didn't know how I could get out of it and I froze. I froze. And it got out that things happened to me and I was mocked by other children. And that hurt. That hurt a lot. That yeah. Um I was also blackmailed into giving someone oral. This was all under the age of 16. Um kids they don't know any better unless you teach them. And I wish I had somebody to teach me when I was younger that if somebody tries to blackmail you, especially into doing sexual stuff even though it doesn't make any fucking sense at the time, why those person's trying to blackmail you. Like I remember him saying, You give me a blowjob and I won't tell people you've given me a blowjob. Like, it's so stupid and silly, and when you're in a high school, that means a lot to you in ways of like you don't want that to get out. And I feel like that is a massive society issue where we see sex as a massive taboo, and we see it as bad. Oh no, she's giving somebody a blowy. Oh, this this is why when I was in high school, there was multiple rumors, not necessarily about me, but like other kids, where it was like, oh, she slept with him, she slept with that, or she got pregnant at an abortion, and it's just like, can we not be mean to each other? It's horrible. But this is how society is, and this is how society has grown. So yeah, I guess I was sexually abused as a kid. Yeah. Um, and I couldn't confine in my parents because I knew that I would just get humiliated by them. My mum in the first place didn't like to see me masturbate. Uh one day she came in and she abruptly uh surprised me while I was masturbating, threw the covers off and told me I was disgusting and everything like that. This was as a young kid figuring out her body. And I never want that for my child to be humiliated and to feel ashamed because this is what this leaflet is all about. Oh, I'm trying so hard not to cry. I'll probably cry later. Um but I am a better person. I wouldn't say it's like empowered me, but it's made me become stronger. This work has definitely made me less trust men less, absolutely. But so has many, many pages of Reddit, where people come in and say, Am I the asshole for like doing so and so? And there's a lot of things where we do sit with reality TV shows like Love Island and uh Big Brother, or like um, I don't really watch that much TV in terms of that because I can't fucking stand it. You see, men be assholes. Men be assholes are everywhere. Men will not stop being assholes, they won't stop uh have live breathing misogyny, they won't stop being racist, like it's that whole not all men will actually you're all liable at some point in your lives, and um I mean I I know some middle class women who have entered prostitution and like they've had not a great time and they don't think it's easy, and yeah, childhood sexual abuse doesn't discriminate um against class or anything like that. I am very thankful that sex work helped me get out of terrible situations where I could have been homeless, where I was in an abusive relationship, where I also was dealing with my alcoholic, um drug-addicted father. And I didn't have anywhere to go um after he was in prison. And I had to take over the bills when I was 17. It was a struggle. Benefits weren't there, society wasn't there for me. And like I'm not saying their point of view isn't valid, but what I'm saying is there are so many sides to this. I'm very fortunate to still be here. And I like I am a quote like happy hooker. I am happy.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:44

Do I have major PTSD of childhood trauma? Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:52

Every fucking day. And I suffer with anxiety and depression.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:58

Yeah, I always have since being a kid. But I'm still happy.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:08

I'm still very happy with a life which I've made for myself from the fucking ashes from the poverty that I was in and such bad situations. And I'm very thankful for learning more about myself over the years.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:31

And I'm not disgusted in what I do. I love my body. I feel so blessed to now love myself, and I've never been able to do that before being a sex worker.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:57

I've always struggled with my body image, and I still do to this day, but I love myself, and it's not like that for everybody, I understand that, but this is what I mean where you have to think about all the sides of women who are in the sex industry, and like as I said, it's not all peachy, it's not. I've had fear, I've had um anger while on the job, I've um felt humiliated, yeah, and I can still feel that to this day if I have an asshole client. This is what I mean, where you have to have thick skin, you have to understand what industry you're coming into, and there is no education on that. But this is why I created the podcast to give education. I know, granted, like I don't you you can listen to it if you're under the age 16, but I don't think Spotify and that show it. I'm not quite sure. I think it's very important to talk to your children about everything, especially sexual stuff. I'm not ashamed of my job. People are trying to make me feel ashamed and say that I need rescuing, and it's like, no, I don't. My job has enabled me to become an amazing person, and there's so many factors to that. And I will never have a normal life. First of all, people know that I hate the word normal. Me, I'm neurodivergent. Normal doesn't normal doesn't exist for me. It doesn't. There is no such thing as normal for a neurodivergent person. Because you're growing up in a neurotypical world, built for neurotypical people, not neurodivergent people. And when you have any type of trauma, you'll never be normal. But this is where there should be resources to help you and support you with getting on with life and wanting to feel like you want to live. It's I'm s I'm so happy. I used to self-harm from like the ages of like 11 to 19 and I haven't like pr like self-harmed in years. And I fucking love that about myself. That I haven't felt like I need to self-harm or want to self-harm. And like I've suffered with eating disorders and just looking at what she's put where since leaving prostitution I've struggled with chronic depression and flashbacks, and like everybody's different, everybody's different, everybody has their own, I don't want to say problems because I hate that word, but everybody has the negatives, whether they're big or small, but clearly nothing's helping, and she sounds miserable because she's not saying she's happy in the slightest. So she's shown that she doesn't have a good support network. She's showing right there that there are no good support networks for people who don't want to be in prostitution or are trying to escape it and are having these horrible thoughts and things. I don't want my industry criminalized because I know that I I'm going to suffer. I'm gonna suffer pretty fucking badly. Right, I'm gonna dry my eyes. The impact on society. Prostitution is a profoundly gendered phenomenon. It is overwhelmingly men who do the buying and the women and those from historically disadvantaged groups who provide the quote services, or who more accurately are paid to endure being used for someone else's sexual gratification. This sentiments the unequal relations between the sexes, men as fully human, women as subhuman, men as masters, women as servants or objects to be used. Right. I'm gonna be very clear in saying this. Um men will always think like this. Some women will always think like this. Everybody. People, no matter what gender, will think like this. I do not see myself as a subhuman. Yes, I am chained to the job in terms of men control my pay.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:49

Because the majority of clients is men.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:54

But it's not right in saying that I'm paid to endure being used for someone else's sexual gratification. I do enjoy having sex, it's why I do escore. Sometimes I don't enjoy it, and I just think about something else while it's happening. It's the job where you have to be prepared. Not every penis is gonna be a nice penis. And depending on your privilege, in terms of if you can state your boundaries, if you can actually ask a client to wash, if you also have the nerve and the balls to actually ask somebody to go wash. That there's a lot of factors. It's not as simple as man is master, woman is submissive. I am there to provide my time and my skills and to give a service. I'm a human being, I'm not an object. You can talk to me about what positions you want me to be in and things like that, because it is a service. You want a type of service, you want things to go a certain way. Again, I'm not denying there are horrific times where men have shoved my head down onto their penis with force.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:39

Um and it's hurt, and that's you know but I wouldn't say that women are servants and men are objects.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:54

I'm sure men think that way. Not all men, but I'm sure some men think that way. And also, does that go like how does it work if I see a woman client? Are we both servants? Are we both objects? Because again, this this is just really fucking gendered and misogyny is a massive key here, and they're just ignoring it. So carrying on. When prostitution is decriminalized, this inequality is enshrined in the law and becomes part of the cultural landscape. This affects everyone. Consider what it means for girls growing up. How would walking past brothels on their way to and from school impact them? I'm interjecting here. But like, I'm pretty sure you need like permits um from the council and that to actually put up brothels and any commercial premises. How do I know this? Because I fucking asked. I asked um. One of the Scottish councils near me, what I needed to have a um dungeon to be able to work from, and they said that I needed uh planning permission, you know, to just have a commercial property, um, depending on the type, and that goes for anything. But say for instance, this did happen, you know, hyperficital, because they can't actually give me um an actual real place where it is placed from a school. Um, I should hope that you are teaching kids actual sex ed and teaching them that women should have rights. Yeah. Um, because bringing in the Nordic model is taking away my rights and my voice. How would it make them think about themselves, their bodies, their aspirations for the future? And what about boys? How would it affect them? And how would it make them view women? How would it make them think about themselves? Again, we need to teach kids about our own bodies, we need to teach kids about misogynistic ways, we need to teach kids what is okay and what is not okay. This is not what is happening. This is not what the Nordic model now or any Nordic model um campaign is talking about. Is equality between the sexes possible in such an environment? Is the idea of equality even possible? That's a good question. I don't think it is. Um I don't think in the next hundred years we will have equality. I don't think in the next 200 years we will have proper definitive equality. And I don't think some women, especially some radical feminists, want equality, especially people who are what's what's the word? Massandriists? I've said that wrong, but misandriists, yes. Um, who just hate men. I know they don't want equality. I I do believe women I'm not a masandrist, that's the word. Um but I do believe women are smarter to a certain extent than men in some ways. Absolutely. Um I think we handle situations better in some ways than men. I think we all have our very good attributes um over each other. So prostitution feeds men's individual and collective sense of superiority and entitlement in sexual access to women. All the myrad forms of the sex industry present a picture of a multitude of interchangeable young women who are sexually available and willing or even desperate to fulfil a man's every whim. No one explains that the women do not fancy them, that they are simply desperate to be paid. Is it any wonder then if men come to see themselves as superior and to see women as a lower order of being, or that they might come to think that women owe them sex? This is the logic that the sex industry teaches boys and young men, and that now pervades mainstream culture. Um, it's not. Um we just lack education where we don't teach kids that porn isn't real. That's fake, that's exaggerated. We don't teach them. Stop blaming the porn industry when our own education system is failing us. Research has long shown that men believing that they are superior and entitled to sexual access to women is associated with violence against women and girls. We are currently witnessing an epidemic of male violence against women and girls and a rise in extreme misogyny along young men as epitomized by the incel movement documented by Laura Bates. Fully decriminalizing the sex industry would implicitly endorse these attitudes. As society, can we afford to do this really? Again, this is leaning on the fact that just women are getting fucking blamed for the incel culture, sex workers are getting blamed for the incel culture. And it's like, no, we really shouldn't be getting blamed at all. They're not hitting on a lot of stuff. Main things. And it's like there's this lovely piece of artwork where a man is saying thank you for a lovely time and a woman is saying no, thank you. And then the woman shuts the door and laughs. Yeah, that can absolutely be fucking true. Yeah. Like it wasn't that can absolutely be true. Like it wasn't a lovely time for the woman because maybe he had a small penis or he didn't know how to fucking eat a clit, or like he wasn't washed or something. I don't fucking know. But like, yes, there has been times where I fucking laughed um because a guy thinks it was an awesome time, and I'm just like, ha ha ha, no. But it's not like that every time. What is not established is that sex work law models cause or meaningfully reduced these beliefs. Rising misogyny along among young men, including incel ideology, is driven by wider social forces, like online radicalization, economic precarity, the backlash to feminism, the gender norms, not by whether sex work is decriminalized or criminalized. Conflating male violence and in-cell culture with sex work policy mistakes a structural, cultural problem for a legal one. There is no credible evidence that the Nordic model reduces misogyny or male violence at a societal level, and using it as a tool to quote fix male entitlement places the burden of solving patriarchy onto some of the most marginalized women instead of addressing the root causes. We're nearly done, I promise. In contrast, the nihilistic vision of those who promote the full decriminalization of the sex work industry. The Nordic model starts from the understanding that prostitution is in care is incompatible with equality between women and men, the poor and the rich, the young and the old, and people of colour and white people. I'm sorry, but some of my clients aren't rich. Like it's a luxury to see a sex worker. It is, it's not a necessity. The Nordic model is based on the understanding that for the most of these involved in prostitution, it was never truly free choice between a number of viable options. And it understands that prostitution is a real choice for those who buy sex. Its aim is not to criminalize men who buy sex, but to send out an unequal vocal message that buying sex is not acceptable in the hope and expectation that this will change their behavior. I'm not being funny, but I don't want I I I want buyers. I want I want people to ring me up. It's clients, it's my paycheck, it's my rent money, it's my food on the table for my kid.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:13

And yes, it's a real choice for those who buy sex because again, it's a luxury.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:22

Also, the fact that it says real choice for those who buy sex, that really if they want to also talk about um sex addicts, that kind of bashes, that kind of clashes with um sex addicts uh campaigns who say that it's not a choice, because they're like really forced into wanting to buy sex. Interesting, very interesting, because I know that there are people out there who want to ban porn because they see it as bad and addiction and stuff like that. So it's like, huh. Interesting, that they're saying it is a real choice for those who buy sex. So and it sends a message that women and girls deserve better than being used as men's sexual toys and whipping girls. If any girls under the age of 18 are in the sex industry, then that's illegal and that needs to be dealt with. There shouldn't be girls in the industry in general. Let's dare to fight a world where women and girls have full human rights in law and in practice. Let's not settle for a world where the brothel is the only option for our most disadvantaged women and girls. Again, only caring about women and girls. Um, and I'm not being funny, but you're not listening to my own voice currently, so you won't listen to it afterwards unless I roll over for you. Um, and say, I want to not have sex work. You know. But but what about? Those who promote full D crime, hello, often make sweeping and damning claims about the Nordic model, many of which might sound superficially convincing, but if you dig deeper, you will find they don't stand up to scrutiny. In this section, we debunk some of them. There isn't room to cover all of them, so first a word of advice. Just like their absences and tobacco in oh, just like their abestos, does that say? What tobacco industries, there are huge profits to be made in the sex industry, often with very little risk. That is bullshit. There is massive risk when it comes to entering the industry. Uh can you see that I'm just after after an hour and a half of this, I'm just so pissed off. I'm not like doing it in order. I'm butting in. It's like, no, there is massive risk being in the sex industry. For example, in the recent case, a British man was found to have made 1.6 million a year from exploiting vulnerable women in his brothels. Who? I would love to know who. Um, and also I am fully for women-manned brothels. Um, because usually they are safer. Um, and I come from experience, because you know, brothel keeping was the charge which I was done for. Um, so you know, I take that with pride because I had multiple sex workers underneath my roof. Um, I wasn't managing them or anything like that. They would rent the room. But I would keep them safe. Absolutely. Okay, so after doing quite a bit of research, there was a few men. Um when you just do like a Google search, man makes millions in UK for brothel keeping. Um, a few people come up, including women as well. So like um one man was massaging a Cuddles massage parlour in the West Midlands. Um, but he was buying properties overseas um and laundered the profits. Another one was um Steam and Sun Health Club, laundering profits, um, and it was shut down. It was also raided, so I hope the people who were in there when it was raided are okay. Um there was a big one where Robert Munro and Margaret Patterson, um, they were part of an Edinburgh-based brothel operation that um and they were ordered to pay back like a million and they laundered money as well. Um so like I'm not denying like people making money off of um sex workers don't exist. It does.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:39

I was one of them.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:42

I got down on a brothel charge because I was renting out a room. And I don't think it's fair whatsoever when you're not controlling the person, when you're letting the person have a safe environment when they are choosing if to do work. And a lot of these other people are in connections with money laundering, tax evasion, um drug dealers. I was none of those. Like I'm living proof that you should be able to actually have sex workers in the same property, especially if you're doing them good. So we're gonna carry on. Um of course he and all the other pimps and brothel owners want to be seen as legitimate businessmen. Um I was a w I'm a woman, and I do want, like I I've said previously, I have no problem being a like madame of a brothel. Because what makes it a brothel is more than one sex worker working together in the same property. It doesn't have to be at the same time, they just have to use the same property. So, like, hello? Yeah, I wouldn't be known as a legit businesswoman who provides a safe environment for the sex workers. Yes. I take pride in that. Come here, have a safe environment. You might still get abused by clients because the they're clients, they're men. Like, you can't make everything safe, but you can maximize the safety to a certain point. Things like male violence, that's beyond our control to a certain extent, because we can give out um classes about misogyny, we can do certain things and whatnot, but it's up to the men and their big boy brains what they do. So, carrying on, and not as seedy criminals who leech off of the suffering of the most vulnerable women. Of course, they don't want to languish in prison on long sentences. Of course, they're ruthless in fighting for their own interests, so it's no surprise that they fund lobbying for full decrim and use dodgy tactics, not unlike those who used not unlike those used by the asbestos bardens barons, including pushing the use of the sex work terminology which obstructs the harms. What? Bruh what dodgy tactics are we doing? Tell me. And of course men who get off on prostitution consider it their god given right and fight any attempt to curtail their quote freedom. It's not surprising therefore that many men are eager to repeat the sex trade lobbyists' distortions and sweet talk. And sadly, many women still differ to the men around them and insinuate when something disturbs their equilibrium, and so they to repeat the sex trade lobbyists' propaganda, because they have yet to untangle what's reality, what's really in their own interest from the web of misinformation and lies. In a nutshell, our advice is to be cautious of taking it at face value anything those who promote full D crime claim. Think who benefits? Think of their complicated vested interests, then think of teenage girls and what is their best interest. Do they deserve a life as a sexual service station for strangers? Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Oh my god. Again, poverty, housing, food, NHS, crisis, all that need to be talked about rather than blaming it on other sex workers. Right, claim one. All sex workers want full decrim. Obviously, all sex workers, quote marks, don't speak with one voice. Many support the Nordic model approach. We've quoted quite a few of them in this booklet. Unfortunately, however, the voices of the most privileged tend to be the loudest and often present a view that is not representative of the majority of those in prostitution. Now, I am privileged to be able to just speak to you, to be able to afford podcast equipment and everything like that. I am privileged in that way. But I know that there are sex workers who aren't privileged who have spoken to D Crim organizations. Um so I'm not being funny. I nearly got my kid taken off of me for doing this work. I didn't have the Nordic model now or anybody else stepping in. And in fact, Ash Regan knows about my case. All of them do. And none of them have said anything or offered any help. So that that itself speaks volumes. And the only narratives they have quoted in their claim is people who are pro-Nordic model. They haven't spoken to anybody else. Quote: All sex worker-led organizations support full D crime. This is a lie, for example, Interra in Sweden, Network Ella in Germany, Willa To Rising in New Zealand, Ma Adaha in Argentina, and Kaweli in South Africa are just a few of many organizations led by women who have lived experiences of prostitution, who campaign tirelessly against full D crime and for the Nordic model approach. Now, at the end of the day, we're not always going to have people who want full D crime. We're going to have people who are against certain things. But at the end of the day, we should all honestly want what is the safest option and which is the most evidence-based. There is no claims that no people with lived experience oppose decriminalization. The issue is representative and jurialization. Citing a small number of abolitionist organizations does not demonstrate consensus among people with lived experience, nor does it outweigh the positions of large, long-standing, democratically constituted sex worker-led organizations that support decriminalization. Groups such as the ones they have spoken about represent specific abolitionist survivor perspectives, not the total not the totality of lived experience. Many of the survivor led and current worker led organizations, including those with broader, with far broader memberships, actively support decriminalization. The existence Of survivor groups on one side of the debate does not evaluate opposing survivors' voices. Lived experiences, plural, not monolithic, and policy cannot be built by selectively elevating only those testimonies that align with a preferred legal model. Oh, we are so close to the end. Claim free. Anrustly International, UNAIDS and W World Health Organization, an insert list of organizations here support DCrim. So it must be the right approach.

unknown 2:15:35

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:36

Annrestly International adopted support for full D-Crim as a policy in 2016 after a biased and questionable consultation process. The very first motion, which eventually led to the policy, was written by Douglas Fox, who was then the co-owner of the biggest escort agency in the north of England. In other words, he was a pimp. He boasted about getting his friends in the industry to join Annasty to help lobby for the adoption of the policy. The research that Annasty conducted was biased and of poor quality. Think dodgy practices of the asbestos barons. Many people consider Annasty's proposition policy, prostitution policy, to be a shameful embarrassment. UNAIDS and World Health Organization also have a policy of lobbying for Falty Crim. This was based on flawed modeling, more dodgy research, and advice from a Mexican pimp who is now serving a long prison term for sex trafficking, just as there are various bodies and organizations that recommend 4D crime. So there are many that recommend the Nordic model, including EU Parliament, the Council of Europe, the Europe Women's Lobby, Equality Now, and the Coalition Against Trafficking Women. Now, trafficking and sex work again are completely two different things. Two different things. Um The World Health organization have also actually mentioned that like the crime helps against And HIV, they have openly said that. So discrediting international human rights bodies via alleging improper motives of individual contributors does not invalidate the policies themselves, particularly when those policies were adapted after multi year, multi country consultations. Animacy International Policy was developed through a global process involving legal analysis, public health evidence, submissions from governments, academics, survivors, and sex worker led organizations. Claims that the policy was written by a pimp misinterpret how amnesty policy formation works. Individual motions do not determine final policy, which is set by member vote following review by the international board. Allegations about individual contributors pass do not constitute evidence that the process or conclusions were invalid. Similarly, UNAIDS and World Health Organization based their support for decriminalization on decades of public health research. Particularly evidence that criminalization increases risks of HIV, reduces access to health care, and discourages reporting of violence. Dismissing this body of work as dodgy modeling without engaging with the underlying data is not a factual critique. By contrast, the organizations cited in support of the Nordic model, such as the European Parliament and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, and uh are political and advocacy bodies, not neutral research institutions. Their support reflects normative and ideological positions about prostitution, not empirical consensus about safety or harm reduction. It's absolutely ridiculous that they think this is a total valid argument. Sir claim for the Nordic model increases violence for women involved in prostitution. There is no credible evidence for this claim. Uh May du Saint-Dumour. Study of the situation in France is often quoted as proving that the Nordic model not only doesn't work but also increases the dangers for women. Initially, only a eight-page summary of the 80-page report was translated into English. This makes alarming and misleading claims that are not backed up by the data in the full report. See the critique by Emilica Dunid for more information. Various other studies are often used to prove this claim, such as Amnesty's study in Norway and the official review in Northern Ireland. Like France, the France study, these also make headline claims that are not backed up by data. Prostitution is inherently violent. Nothing can change that. That is why we need to focus on prevention, alternatives, and changing men's behavior. But you mmm you have said none of this. You have not said that you're gonna try and help with any of this, and you haven't given any solutions. This whole bit, this whole claim, misinterprets both the evidence and the nature of the critique. There is credible evidence that the Nordic model can increase risk for people in prostitution, particularly through displacement, reduced client screaming, rush negotiations, and increased isolation. These findings appear across multiple studies and jurisdictions and are not dependent on any single report. The France study is frequently dismissed on the basis of who critiques it rather than what it documents. Its findings are consistent with reports from outreach organizations showing how reduced negotiating power, increased pressure to accept riskier clients, and heightened fear of police involvement after client criminalization. Disagreements over interpretation do not negate the lived impacts reported by those affected. Similarly, the Animus Nee International Research in Norway and the official review in Northern Ireland do not rely on headline claims alone. They document structural effects of the Nordic model, including displacement and reduced safety strategies, just like all the other reports. They are well-established mechanisms in criminology and public health research. Claiming the data do not support the conclusions without demonstrating methodological flaws is not a rebuttal, but it is an assertion. The statement prostitution is inherently violent is a philosophical position, not a proper finding. Starting from that premise predetermines the policy outcome and renders evidence irrelevant if all prostitution is defined as violence by definition, then no legal model can ever be evaluated on harm reduction, only moral grounds. The claim that there is no credible evidence is so false. The evidence based the evidence base is contested, but substantial, and shows that client criminalization can increase certain risks. Dismissing this oh this body of work by selectively critiquing summaries and or relying on ideologically aligned counter-organizations does not evaluate those feelings, those findings. I mean they have tried to silence me multiple times themselves. Claim 5. The Nordic model interferes with women's rights to do what they choose to do with their body. Uh yes it is, thank you. It's making it more dangerous for me. That should really just be that should really just be it. Like there's it. Argument done. Most women involved in prostitution because of the absence of alternatives rather than as a free and informed choice. Again, you're hitting on the fact that people aren't informed about um sex work and whatnot. They should be. For example, the 2008 official research into the outcome of Full Deep Cream in New Zealand found that 85% of women they interviewed wanted to get out of prostitution but didn't know how to. This is typical results found in other studies. We want women to have better options, but if a woman really does want to be involved in prostitution, under the Nordic model, she is free to do so without being a target of the criminal law. That's bullshit because we aren't decriminalized or anything like that. And this argument does rely on the misrepresentation of the 2008 New Zealand Review. The Prostitution Law Review Committee did not find that 85% of women wanted to exit prostitution, but quote, didn't know how. Many respondents expressed conditional or long-term aspirations to leave, often linked to age, finances, or future plans, which is common across many forms of precarious labor. Wanting better options or an eventual exit is not the same as lacking agency or wanting immediate criminal intervention. It is true that many people enter sex work due to limited alternatives, policy, debt, migrant status, trauma, or lack of opportunity. But criminal law does not create alternatives. Removing income without providing housing, welfare, health care, childcare, education, or immigration security does not expand choice. It narrows it. Decriminalization addresses harm within sex work, while exit services and social support addresses the conditions that constrain choice. These are complementary, not mutually exclusive. The claim that women are, quote, free under the Nordic model because selling sex illegal ignores the practical effects of client criminalization. When clients are criminalized, sex workers are still policed indirectly, face increased surveillance, experience reduced ability to screen clients, and often work in more isolated conditions. Being normally legal does not mean being safe, secure, or free from enforcement pressure. Acknowledging constrained choice strengthens the case for robust social safety nets and voluntary exit support, not for criminalizing the economic activity people rely on to survive. The evidence does not support the claim that the Nordic model meaningfully expands women's options or autonomy in practice. Now, with that, we are at the end. Thank you very, very much for everybody listening to this. Thank you everybody for listening. Um while I was doing all of this, um, it has been postponed. It was meant to be in eight days that we were meant to be hearing if the Nordic model is going to be going forward, but now it's postponed. We don't know when. I will absolutely give you an update when. Thank you very much for everybody l listening. Please, please, please, please, please, please, could we give a review to the podcast? Um could we also please um message our MPs, email them, fucking don't like harass them, but like you know, wink wink. Like tell them. Tell them we need decriminalisation and whatnot. Don't be violent, don't be violent. But yeah, and if you want to join Scotland for De Crim, um give us a message. Um, and yeah, thank you so much for listening. This has been behind the pad podcast from ePossing Victoria, and goodbye.