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Hello and welcome back to Behind the Powder Podcast with me, Paulson Victoria. So today we are going to be talking about a very special woman who really elevated what a brothel keeper can be, um, what a dominatrix can be, and just the sex industry as a whole. And Cynthia Diana Payne really put BDSM, the sex industry, on the map in the 1970s going forward, in Britain. She had so many clients, and we're we're gonna go into it. There was a bit of a faff up, let's say. A bit of so much unfairness with the government and the police and the judges. But let's start where it all began. Cynthia Diana Payne was born on the twenty fourth of December 1932. She was known professionally as Cynthia Payne and nicknamed Madame Sin. She was an English madam, brothel keeper, party hostess, and media personality. She was widely considered to be Britain's best known madam. She made headlines throughout the 1970s and 1980s when she was convicted of running a brothel at 32 Ambleside Avenue in Streatham, South London. Cynthia Diana Payne was born in Sussex, England on the twenty fourth of December Christmas Eve in 1932, as the eldest child to Nelson Arthur Payne, who was a hairdresser, and his wife, Elizabeth, a housewife. She sadly died from throat cancer when Cynthia was twelve years old. She had a younger sister, Wendy A. Stokes. Payne was expelled from her Covent Boarding School for being a quote bad influence. She trained as a hairdresser before working as a waitress and later as a shop assistant. As a teenager, she moved to London to work in a department store, Swan and Edgar. She became a sex worker to avoid eviction from her flat because she was behind with rent. Quote, I realized I could do it and make money at the same time. She told her biographer Paul Bailey in An English Madam 1982, quote, it made me bloody determined. I was never going to go crawling for money again. Initially, she ran, quote, kinky parties for kinky people, advertising in contact magazines, but her brothel, far from the flesh pots of Soho, attracted a word of mouth clientele of older men who like to have their fantasies indulged. Whether this involved straight sex, bondage, whipping, or roleplaying. So we are actually going to start reading an English Madam by Paul Bailey for our book. So that will be released usually every Thursday, and hopefully we're going to read a chapter each time. Payne, known as Madame Sin, first came to national attention in December 1978 when police raided her home, a home which she did own, in fact, 32 Ambleside Avenue. In Streffham, a suburb in South London, while a sex party was in progress. Men using difficult to forge luncheon vouchers to provide quote proof of services performed, paid to dress up in lingerie, and v-spanked by young women. So luncheon vouchers I'm 27 and I had no idea what these were, so I had to do a little bit of digging. And luncheon vouchers, LVs, were a popular UK employee benefit introduced in 1946 to help workers afford midday meals during post-war rationing. That was very interesting. Cynthia was a middle-aged madam and a businesswoman. She had been a sex worker herself, but generally preferred the role of running an establishment where sex workers could trade. She had already been convicted of running a brothel on four previous occasions. Cynthia was motivated to fulfil the sexual fantasies of middle class men, and to be paid for doing so. Her arrest and exposure caused a great deal of public interest due to the client she offered personal services to. There is an amazing movie which we'll come back to at the end called Personal Services. I've watched it multiple times. I absolutely love it. It it's hilarious but also sad because no woman should be as long as there is consenting adults and you have an establishment where women can work safely, you should not be prosecuted for that. But I'm getting ahead of myself here. Let's get back to this. In her home, she held sex parties, offered discounts for pensioners, and took a flat fee from her customers of £27. The discount for the pensioners was um £3, which that's so funny that she offered discounts, which included food, drink, a film, a live show, and the sexual services of one woman. As part of the package, the men were issued with luncheon vouchers to the value of 10p and 15p, which would be given to the woman who provided the sexual service, so she in turn could provide her slips to Cynthia for payment. The fame of Cynthia's parties spread, and women who sought to sell sexual services were attracted to her establishment. Some of those present at the premises on the 4th of December 1978 were there simply to earn extra cash for Christmas. But this very British carry-on came to an end after an anonymous letter was sent to the police. We hate a snitch, don't we? Especially when it's all consent and adults and nothing harmful is going on whatsoever. At 3 50 pm, on a Wednesday afternoon in December, police raided an unusual Christmas party that was being held in the five bedroom Victorian house in a South London suburb. Inside were fifty-free men and thirteen women, varying levels of undress, including a peer of the realm, an MP, a number of solicitors and company directors, and several vicars. Everyone was questioned, but only one was charged, Cynthia Payne, the hostess, whose notoriety soon brought her the nickname Madame Payne. A cartoon in the press at the time, according to Sarah Baxter in the Sunday Times, showed a vicar in bed with a sex worker confronted by a policeman. I demand to see my solicitor, said the vicar, who is in the next bedroom. And when I was doing a lot of research for this um podcast episode, I came across the fact that I could barely find anything which actually said sex worker. There was a lot of talk about prostitution, prostitutes, but nothing actually using the word sex worker. Which I found was very interesting of the times. Especially the fact that we did do an episode about Carol Lee, who was credited with coining the term sex work at a anti-pornography conference in the late 1970s and early 1980s. So I found it very interesting that even articles which were up to date or have been done a few years ago, they didn't include the word sex worker. It was all just prostitute, prostitution. So it was very, very interesting. I mean, I would love to live in the times and to obviously meet Cynthia. That that would have been so fun. But we're gonna carry on because I'm so getting sidetracked. So when Cynthia Payne appeared at the Inner London sessions, now in the London Crown Court, in April 1979, she faced 21 charges and was represented by the prominent human rights barrister Geoffrey Robinson. She pleaded guilty to only three charges of controlling prostitution and one of keeping a disorderly house. The facts put before the court, which were undisputed, were that those present on the day of her arrest were all consenting adults who chose to be there. It was accepted by the prosecution that Cynthia had not recruited had not recruited the women. There was no question of coercion or corruption by her. The clients knew perfectly well what they were doing and none of the neighbours complained. And the women were not obligated to have sex and could say no. It was a safe establishment for them to trade in with no dangers. The police superintendent in charge of the case gave evidence to the court of Cynthia's previous convictions of running brothels, and when her own defence advocate inquired of him, more interesting details emerged. The police officer confirmed that Cynthia's clients were principally middle-aged and elderly bosomist men, managing directors, accountants, solicitors, barristers, a member of parliament for Ireland, a member of the House of Lords, and not to forget several vicars. Cynthia was sentenced to 18 months' imprisonment. It was the first time she'd ever been to prison. None of Cynthia's clients who sought the personal services she offered were prosecuted. Judge David West Russell also fined her £650, and she was to pay for her own prosecution to the sum of £2,000. A significant amount 40 years ago when a loaf of bread cost 28p and a pint was 40p. Definitely won't get that these days in London. The court showed contempt for her behaviour and punished her accordingly, Apparently. The men who paid in luncheon vouchers for their sexual fantasies to be fulfilled weren't judged. But the women who indulged them were. At the same time, there was public outcry that no man stood in the dock, and the scorn of what they considered to be a permissive society fell on a middle-aged madame. The Court of Appeal felt the need to write a wrong, but not necessarily the one that some members of the public at the time perceived. There were complaints that trading sex for money was not a crime, that there was no offence of prostitution on the statue books, and therefore the law as it stood was inherently unfair to women, who provided the services if they sought to work together for a sense of safety as the law would not understand, as the law would not allow for establishments such as Cynthia's to operate lawfully. Keep in mind Cynthia didn't have to pay taxes. She had to pay taxes on brothel keeping, on sex work. Yep. It was still all taxable back in the day. Now the government does say that it's violence against women and girls, in their words, prostitution, but we still have to pay taxes, and we still had to pay them back in the day as well. It's absolutely shocking that we still have to, based on what the government says and how horrific our job apparently is. But it's not a real job. But we still have to Yeah, I'm getting sidetracked. Cynthia Payne's legal team appealed her sentence on the basis it was excessive, and her case appeared before the Court of Appeal in 1980. Cynthia had, of course, run brothels for a living, and the offence of keeping a brothel had not, in the prosecution's view, given them sufficient scope to prosecute her. The simple offence of keeping a brothel would have only allowed a magistrate to sentence her at most to six months in prison, and so they relied on an offence which existed at common law. One that was so old that it was not even in statute. The offence of keeping a disorderly house. The definition of that offence dated back to 1751, but the offence itself dated back to the time of Henry III. When Parliament became concerned that a group of women had set up a brothel just south of Fleet Street and close to a friary. A court of appeal accepted that Cynthia's case amounted to no more than keeping a brothel, and it seemed excessive for any sentence to be more than the maximum allowed in law, namely six months imprisonment. The Court of Appeal described Cynthia's case as a particularly bad case of brothel keeping, but still just a case of brothel keeping. And so Julie reduced her sentence to six months imprisonment. But what is most fascinating in the Court of Appeal judgment is that they went out their way to clarify exactly what type of men had actually been found to have frequented the suburban brothel. The courts were concerned with the appearance of men, specifically legal men. The Court of Appeal stated Before parting with this case we shall we wish to call attention to what we consider to be the most unfortunate aspect of this case. Upon reading the papers, the court decided to check as best it could whether information given before the lower court was correct and concluded. There were 49 names of male clients on the list. It was decided to check the list of names of barristers on the bar list. There was not one barrister on that list of names. Unfortunately, the facilities have not enabled us to check whether the same can be said of other categories. The priority for the court was clear, the reputation of men. Although that brotherly interest did not extend to solicitors, businessmen, or accountants. Of course, commentators at the time pointed out that any male barrister caught at Avalside Avenue might well have known that the law as it stood would not criminalize what they were doing, and so might have decided to give a false name to a police officer to save their blushes. What relevance does a case that took place over 40 years ago have today? Well, simply that the legal position concerning the sale of sexual services is pretty much the same. We have a jumble of old laws mixed with some new aimed specifically at preventing the exploitation of the vulnerable, but that being said, that is for trafficking rather than sex work. Spread over a number of statutes that the criminal justice system uses to police the sale of sex for money, although the CPS guidance makes it clear that the reduction of prostitution is one of its aims. What makes this area so difficult to comprehend for some is that there is no law which explicitly bans the sale of sexual services for money. People therefore think it's a grey area. It's certainly confusing, especially as a sex worker myself, but there are a number of criminal offences that but there are a number of criminal offences that are committed when someone sells sex for money, particularly when they work with others in a brothel. But then you have to keep in mind, a brothel can be anything, technically. Even a hotel. If a hotel has two sex workers in that hotel at any point doesn't have to be at the same time, then it's technically a brothel. But the police aren't going to go for that, are they? No. They're going to go for the property which I had, the one which Cynthia had, where there are consenting adults having parties, having fun, having consented sex, where they are not obligated to do anything and they can say no. That is what the police go after. Sex work and trafficking are two completely different things. I say it in I want to say every podcast episode. Sex work is when you consent. Trafficking is when you do not consent. It does not mean you have to be trafficked over into the country or anything like that. You can still be trafficked by your boyfriend, by a pimp, by somebody. But with this law, with brothel keeping, this also stops women working together for safety. As that is now then classed as brothel keeping, as you're working together rather than alone. The law of keeping a disorderly House, keeping a brothel, controlling prostitution, are defined legal lines that cross each other, like a spider's web aimed at catching every anyone who profits from the sale of sex. For money. The focus is not the person who seeks the service, but the person who manages the premises, where the sale of sex takes place, or those who make a living from the provision of those services. Obviously, if we had the Nordic model, this would be different, as the seeker would be criminalized. Well, apparently that's how it's supposed to work. But as evidence has shown, sex workers get it worse, even more under the Nordic model. And you can go listen to the previous episodes I made about the Nordic model. I'm sure I have made five episodes, I think, about Nordic model, about how it has devastating effects to sex workers. And sex workers who have the Nordic model in their country have spoken out about how dangerous it is. So I'm not gonna dive more deeper into that right now because that is just like opening off a can of worms, it really is, and there's also just five more episodes that you can go listen about that. It definitely is not the greatest when it comes to laws like which are apparently meant to help sex workers when actually it doesn't, and we should all vote for decriminalization. We should definitely encourage and teach MSPs, people just in general, about how good decriminalization can be. Now back to this. This area of law many feel is ripe for review but remains untouched whilst the various governments of the day try to make out what the appropriate public policy should be and how to ensure safety of sex workers. Women cannot work together to sell sex even if they do it to ensure they are safe and protected. The law pushes them towards working alone, which can make them vulnerable and isolated. A new offence was imported into the 1956 Sexual Offences Act in 2003, so that the offence of keeping a brothel used in prostitution is an offence that now carries a maximum of seven years imprisonment. And trust me, I was absolutely shitting it because that's what I was up against when I got charged with brothel keeping. It absolutely terrifying to think that up to seven years in prison just for having a safe space for other sex workers. Insane. Cynthia Payne was the focus of her prosecution. She was blamed and punished, but the men who gave her business and the ability to thrive were not. And you can't help but feel that the way the criminal justice system treated her was cruel. Cynthia Payne smiled in the face of humiliation and cultivated her image as Madame Payne. As Madame Sin. But it must have caught her deeply that the men had judged her so harshly given her intentions was to please them. Cynthia's choice of profession, keep in mind, choice, gave her the opportunity to earn the type of money she could never have achieved from the low-paying jobs she was born into. In a world where sex could be traded as a commodity, as opposed to a world where it was provided for free, and in the pursuit of love or lust, she had a child very young who she couldn't provide for. Another child followed, but he was adopted, and she had several abortions because her boyfriends of the time insisted on unprotected sex, and she obliged, in a hope he wouldn't leave her. It was when she was working in a calf in Victoria, London as a waitress that a smartly dressed woman in her forties asked to use her digs to see clients while she worked. She received payment for her service and earned more than she did as a waitress. She began to change her life, where she tried to take control of it in a man's world. Poverty is a big factor in why people turn to sex work. Childcare costs, low wages, high rent, ever-struggling climb to the top. It's only just over a hundred years, 1919, since women were allowed to enter the law as lawyers, judges, magistrates, and jurors. Just 100 years since women were allowed to vote, become members of parliament, and have a direct say about laws in this country, in the UK. But women have been in the law for many years as those accused of crimes and criminals. Sex work is predominantly a female profession, although not exclusively so. The laws relating to prostitution as they currently stand heavily impact women. They force them to live on the edge of the law, meaning they will not turn to the police or the criminal justice system for help because of fear of judgment or arrest. It is not just about more women in law, it's also about how the law treats women. Whether you condone the sex industry or not, it exists. Society has to decide what we think is appropriate with regards to sexual freedom. Until decisions are made, we remain with the law as it pretty much stood 40 years ago. And as it was years before that, laws that define many women as criminals. More than four decades ago, when Cynthia Payne faced the courts, commentators made the point that if we were seeking to prevent sex work, why is there no law outright banning it? Surely those who create the demand are more cultible than those who supply it. Some took the view that there would never be enacted a law which made sex work illegal, because it meant that the men who sought the personal services would finally be named. You can go look up a previous episode about how Carole Lee helped the I want to say revolution, honestly, how she was a massive activist with when it concerned sex workers and how the law was towards them, and how we do do labor, and it should be seen as that. And there was proof that legalization wasn't as great as it sounded, and criminalization was even more harmful. And decriminalization definitely was the way of going about it. There is a few more bits about decriminalization that I really want to talk about, but we we're just gonna get more and more lost in this lovely story about Cynthia. So women like Cynthia entered her procession, as we've talked about, being a way to provide for themselves. She became what the law deems a criminal in order to financially survive. Before she was freed, Cynthia spent several months in Holloway prison, although when finally released, she was escorted home in a client's Rolls Royce. In 1986, the police raided Payton's home again, this time during a quote special party she was hosting after shooting of the film of her life had been completed. Although she was acquitted on this occasion, the resulting court case in 1987 made headlines for several weeks, with lurid tales, some details of which she aired on the ITV comedy talk show The Dame Edna Experience, broadcasted on 17th of October. There she launched her book Entertaining at Home, 101 Party Hints from Britain's Most Popular Hostess, which was published by Penguin. The court case ended her career as a party giver. I actually have that book and I I can't wait to read it. It's gonna be like it's you flip through it and you just it's amazing. Payne became a media personality, appearing on a number of television programmes. While appearing on the Dame Edmar experience, Payne expressed an interest in becoming a member of Parliament in order to change Britain's sex laws, which she followed through by standing for Parliament as a candidate for the Rainbow Alliance Pain and Pleasure Party in the Kensington by-election in July 1988, finishing sixth of 15 candidates with 193 votes. Payne then stood unsuccessfully, sadly, in her own area. Strefan for the Rainbow Dream ticket in the 1992 general election, she again came sixth of seven candidates with 145 votes. Payne also made appearances as an after dinner speaker and launched a range of adult services and products in 2006. Payne had two sons. She fell pregnant by a much older married man and gave birth to her elder child, who was eventually fostered. Paine financed his boarding school education and later attended his wedding. She gave her younger child up for adoption at a few weeks old and had three abortions. Although she was always known as Mrs. Payne, she never married and had five grandchildren. Payne lived at 32 Ambleside Avenue, a detached Edwardian four-bedroom house in Streffham, South London, which she bought for £16,000 in 1974? Just that. Wow. And owned until her death. Her secretary and advisor Gloria Walker later moved in with her. Land registry records show her house was sold for 1.25 million in October 2016. Payne sadly died at King's College Hospital in Camberwell on 15 November 2015. She was 82. Her family celebrated her life with a colourful humanist funeral service on 9 December 2015. In accordance with her wishes, she was buried at Strepham Park Cemetery in Greater London. Following her death, her funeral saw mourners dressed in French made outfits, policemen while her coffin was decorated with flowers, spelling out sex. The property in Ambleside Avenue, Strepham in South London, was turned into luxury flats in 2021, but was once a hotbed of vice, with Payne hosting a cast of characters. It's such a shame that it got turned into flats. Neighbours of a house once owned by the notorious Madame Cynthia Payne say she helped put their suburban enclave on the map and even helped to drive up house prices. One woman said, I'm originally from Spain, but I heard of Cynthia Payne from the film about her. Now I live here, and it's a lot of fun that I'm in the area that she was. Everyone knows about it, and it is a bit of London history. I think it's a good for the area. I tell all my friends about it. It's an expensive area now with character. I'm sure she helped it become somewhere special. A resident of one of the newly converted flats in the former brothel added. It's nothing like it was inside, but you get But you do get tourists having a look from the outside. It's a bit of fun and London life. Locals said Cynthia used to drink at a local called Pratt and Pain on the Strepham High Road, which has closed now. There is no family connection, but she was well known. She was a well known face there. One neighbour said Cynthia used to go there. I don't know if it was because of the name, but she was a regular, and I'm sure she had many tales to keep regulars amused. In November 2016 it was reported that Payne had left nearly 1.3 million in her will, which was divided equally between her sons. The bulk of her estate was made up by the value of her house in Strepham. There are two verified biographers about Payne's life. An English Madam, The Life and Work of Cynthia Payne, written by Paul Bailey and published by Jonathan Cape in 1982, and explicitly yours Trial of Cynthia Payne, written by Gloria Walker in her secretary and advisor. Written by Gloria Walker, her secretary and advisor, which was published by Penguin Books in 1987. She hoped that the books and the movies would broaden people's minds. I have both of those books. I'm very happy. It was quite a hunt to find them, but I'm very happy that I did. There were two comedy films which were loosely based on Payne's life, Both released in 1987. Personal Services, which is about her adult life, starring Julia Walters in the lead role of Christine Painter, and directed by Terry Jones, and Wish You Were Here about her adolescence growing up in the Sussex coast, with Emily Lloyd in the lead role of Lydia Mansell. Both were written by David Leland, who also directed Wish You Were Here, which was filmed in Brighton, Werving and Bognor Regis over a period of six weeks. The first day of filming was on Lloyd's 16th birthday. Personal Services was banned in the Republic of Ireland on the 13th of March. Personal Services was released in May, and it was banned the 13th of March upon theatrical release. Although the band was lifted two months later after being overturned by the Film Appeals Board on 12th of May. Now, if you don't know, Northern Ireland actually has the Nordic model, which, you know, is devastating to sex workers, so it's no surprise to me that in 1987 they were ahead where they just did not like sex work or anything that strayed from the norm. So that's no surprise to me personally. Paul Bailey was honoured with the task of writing the official biography of the notorious Strepford Madame, but first he was ordered to attend one of her parties. Quote, Cynthia Payne appointed me her official biographer in 1980 after rejecting John Wells, whom she suspected to be a quote piss taker, and John Le, who turned up for his interview with the Madame wearing grubby trainers and baggy jeans. They lacked respect, she said. Aye, by contrast, arrived at 32 Ambuleson Side Avenue in Strepham in a smart navy blue suit and shoes that gleamed. For the next two hours or so I listened intently as she told me about her life and the curious turns it had taken. I had no idea that there was a tape recorder secreted beneath a cushion on a chair nearby. When we met for the second time, she played back our conversation, to which I had contributed the very occasional really? And is that so? And of course. Apart from that, she went uninterrupted. There were slaves in attendance whenever we met, slave Peter, dressed only in a skimpy apron that barely covered his gender tools, brought us coffee and biscuits, while slave Robert toiled in the garden trimming the lawn and dead hedging flowers. They pair their superior mistress forty pounds a week for the honour of working on her behalf, and were happily unaware of the intrinsic absurdity of their situation. Never were two men so devout to duty. Cynthia carried a small cane to remind them of the consequences if they cut corners or overlooked a weed sprouting in the grass. It was so perfect. It was a perfect arrangement they all agreed. I was introduced one by one to Cynthia's regulars, old friends as well as customers. Cynthia made it clear to me that I would never understand her if I didn't come to one of her famous parties. There was always the danger that the police might raid her again, as they did in 1978. One particular party in December 1980 refuses to delodge itself from my memory. It began in the early evening. Cynthia's girls were already in attendance when the first eager guests arrived, arrived at Cranmore, the name of her disorderly house. At the age of 43, I was the youngest man present. Cynthia greeted each of her old boys with good humour and in some cases obvious affection. Everyone was well dressed out of respect for the hostess. Mitch in his Yakmank served with drinks Yashmank. In his Yashmack served the drinks, gin, whiskey, cans of beer, and orange juice for those who intended to quote go upstairs, without succumbing to brewer's droop before the real fun and game started. Cynthia called for silence above the noise in the packed sitting room. Two of her loveliest girls were going to put on a display in front of the blazing log fire. We watched Miss A and Miss B gave way to unbrindled passion on the carpet. They were joined suddenly in their exertions. by a distinguished London publisher who had undressed with a speed worthy of an Olympic gold medalist. He had removed everything except his socks as he threw himself between the pair of pretend lesbians. The old boys broke into spontaneous and no doubt envious applause. As the publisher exhibited hitherto unexpected skills, Cynthia was delighted that she had invited him. She remarked, without irony, that he added a touch of class to the going on's. The publisher's sexual energy was boundless that night. He disappeared upstairs with Miss A and was not seen again. I sat in the kitchen with Jean, a retired dominatrix with whom I had become good friends with. A girl of advanced years was busy at the stove preparing poached eggs and toast for the old boys who had exhausted themselves into various bedrooms. Strong tea and bovil was available for those of weaker disposition. About a week later the publisher phoned to tell me that Cynthia had sent him a bill for £30. I replied that £30 was very reasonable for a price for the services he had enjoyed. He was outraged at the idea that he should have to pay for sex. Quote But you were in a brothel, I said that's not the point, he spluttered. Thirty five years on I still don't know what he meant. He sent her a check eventually. She tore it up. She was a notorious woman and someone at the bank might recognise his name and give it to the papers. For all her brazeness Cynthia Payne was a kind and surprisingly decent human being, unlike the stingy millionaire who begrudged paying her a pittance. So that was the podcast episode about Cynthia Payne. Again I love doing these podcast episodes where like I actually do enjoy talking about particular people and educating people and just about people who have mattered in the world and still do matter but yeah I hope you really enjoyed today's episode. Cynthia Payne was an amazing woman who I kind of want to be like I think she is a good role model in a way where capitalism the toxic government will not put women down just based on consenting work and I can totally understand how she felt in the moments of getting raided and I love how ferocious she was fighting. She was so brave and I want to be like that. And I wanna think about the future and think about all the good and want to keep living so yeah this has been Behind the Power Podcast from Impulse and Victoria. I hope you guys have enjoyed this episode if you did like then please give the podcast a review and yeah we're on Apple Spotify everywhere. Um we do have an Instagram I'm not as active on there um but yeah if you want me to talk about anything else then you can give me an email and that's all for today bye